I've never been so confused as to what to do....(back to back hands)

[boondockst]

well they were close to back to back...Hand 1 I really saw no way that with 4 others in i had the best hand. The river was quite shocking to me. I would actually bet every penny i have ever made that with those 4 players still in, i did not have the winning hand at the river...This is NOT a bad beat post but rather a prelude to hand 2

The villain in hand 2 was the typical 72/44 but a surprisingly low 0.64 PFAF


Hand 1:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero ($26.57)
<font color="#C00000">SB ($36.3)</font>
BB ($11.75)
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($53.34)</font>
MP ($22.5)
<font color="#C00000">CO ($30.7)</font>

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, SB (poster) calls $0.90, BB calls $0.75, UTG calls $0.75, CO calls $0.75.

Flop: ($5) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $0.25</font>, Hero calls $0.25, SB calls $0.25, BB folds, UTG calls $0.25.

Turn: ($6) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $1</font>, UTG calls $1, CO calls $1, Hero folds.

River: ($9) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: $9

Results in white below:
SB has 5d 5s (one pair, fives).
UTG has 9h 8h (high card, ace).
CO has Qs 2d (one pair, twos).
Outcome: SB wins $9.



This was one of those common BB hands where you click the Check/Fold button and i turned back around from the TV and said oh, nice flop and then...

Hand 2:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero ($26.92)
UTG ($37.3)
MP ($11.75)
CO ($53.34)
Button ($21.9)
SB ($29.95)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $0.25, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($1) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $2</font>, Hero ??????

[theredpill6]

Hand 1) I might have raised to about $4 on the flop to see if I could take it there. I don't think you necessarily played Hand 1 bad because over the long run, KK doesn't make it's EV on Ace high flops. So I'm saying that you didn't win money or lose money on Hand 1. I think probably folding right there on the turn or playing it like you did over the long run is probably +EV because someone will have the ace the majority of the time. Really, though, you should decide on the flop whether someone has an Ace or not and stick with it. Although, you probably had some nice implied odds had a King hit on the turn.

Hand 2) you call, what else. See what he does on the turn. He could be betting an underpair or a 3. If he comes back hard on the turn, I probably fold it as your kicker is no good.

[boondockst]

Please stop giving bad advice. If you had the slightest respect of this forum, I wouldn't say that raising to $4 in a 5-way pot on an ace-high flop with KK is the dumbest thing i've ever heard.

Do you realize people read these threads as learning aids to get better in poker?

[theredpill6]

I assume you mean't to say that you think raising to $4 on that flop (6 handed) with ace high is dumb ?

What is your f u c king problem ? I gave you advice dude. What is your bankroll bigshot ? If you didn't notice, you are playing 6 max, not 10 handed. Hell, I'd raise that 10 handed because sometimes you can take it down. They are showing big time weakness. You failed to see that. Stop running your mouth and read what I write.

[theredpill6]

If you had notice how loose they were maybe you could have raised to $2 and isolated one or two of them.

[boondockst]

Yeah someone with A2 sure is weak but that doesn't mean they're folding. I'll post this hand in a week without the results and we'll see what you post. Yes it's 6-max but there's 4 other players in. Most 10- or 9-handed raised pots won't even have 5 players total so it makes no difference. You say you have that kind of bankroll yet you are pissed about losing set over set a few times? What site are you playing on?

[theredpill6]

[ QUOTE ]
What site are you playing on?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a secret. I doubt you are playing on it. I do have that kind of bankroll but to be honest, $4500 ain't [censored].

[boondockst]

Have you been banned from that site 5 times or are we the only special one?

[Sephus]

in hand 1 i would have raised to 1.50. if the flop were 3-way or less i would have bet 3/4-4/5 pot. i would definitely not have folded the turn for $1 given the way you played it, i would have called the tiny bets down.

in hand 2 this is somewhat player dependent, also depends on my image, but i think i'd call the flop and turn, bet the turn when checked to, etc. if he looks like he's trying to get allin i fold. you can also raise the flop and fold to a reraise, but i like a passive approach a little better in this case.

[Bukem_]

Hand 1 I think alot depends on how likely the table is to give a free showdown, provided draw doesn't fill in. Obviously awkward spot to be in.

Hand 2 Just call and see what happens. If he has a monster why would he try to get you to fold?

[boondockst]

But with him betting $2 into the $1 pot is it even worth it?

And on hand one, how often will i actually win unimproved?
The tiny % of the time i'm ahead on the flop, someone makes a b.s. two pair anyway. Honestly in 30K hands at this level i have NEVER seen a 6-max 5-way raised pot on an ace-high flop have an unimproved underpair win.

[boondockst]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 Just call and see what happens. If he has a monster why would he try to get you to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heads up against SB vs. BB on that kind of flop, against that type of opponent, I didn't feel like putting forth any sort of mental effort in deciding if i was WA/WB and as crazy as he was he was just as apt to give me his money on a more clearcut hand. That was more the nature of my question.

Some construed my thread title to mean, "I have NO idea what to do here." I should have clearly stated that i was simply asking, "Do you bother playing this hand in this situation."

[Bukem_]

I'd feel pretty confident in hand 2 that I have the best hand and be happy to continue.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
But with him betting $2 into the $1 pot is it even worth it?

And on hand one, how often will i actually win unimproved?
The tiny % of the time i'm ahead on the flop, someone makes a b.s. two pair anyway. Honestly in 30K hands at this level i have NEVER seen a 6-max 5-way raised pot on an ace-high flop have an unimproved underpair win.

[/ QUOTE ]

hand 2: yeah it's worth it.

hand 1: i've seen KK be good in that spot before. often enough to call the 1$, i'd say. i wouldn't worry about it though, it's not a big deal either way.

[FNG]

[ QUOTE ]
raising to $4 in a 5-way pot on an ace-high flop with KK is the dumbest thing i've ever heard.


[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, get over yourself. Your line here is soooo much dumber than this.
You want advice, here it is: stop playing like a scared little girl. You raised your monster preflop. Fine. Then you gave up on the hand because an overcard fell. WTF?!? Find some balls and bet the pot or at least 2/3 of it or something. If this is a typical line for you, you're leaving a LOT of money on the table worrying about monsters under the bed.

Second hand, maybe call him and let him keep bluffing at you.

[boondockst]

MONSTERS under the bed? With 4 other players in the pot, I should get aggressive with a middle pair? I bet near the pot most of them probably call anyway, then what? check/fold? I was asking about the second hand, but since you can't read thread titles/intros, nevermind.

[boondockst]

FNG, after indulging in your other 3 (three) posts, I sincerely apologize. The fact that you contributed to the "whether or not internet poker shuffles are random" thread convinced me that I should take what you say more seriously.

[dbitel]

I know that you want comments on hand 2, but I must admit that I agree with the others on this thread that raising the flop is good on hand 1. You've had 3 checks and then a $0.25 bet into $5 pot. It doesn't exactly look like any1 likes their hand. I do like a 2/3 pot bet here. You showed strength pre-flop, so continue it on the flop.

On hand 2, how often would he make the $2 bet without the Q? If you called and he didn't have it, would he fire out again on the turn?

[FNG]

[ QUOTE ]
With 4 other players in the pot, I should get aggressive with a middle pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't that. You raise preflop, what hand range do you think they put you on? Do most of those contain aces or not?
[ QUOTE ]
I bet near the pot most of them probably call anyway, then what? check/fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus. If you can realistically expect MOST of the table to call a pot sized bet here my table selection must suck ass. Yes you ARE more scared than you need to be, and habitually so. Players you think are weaker than you are bluffing you out of pots ALL THE TIME. Anyway, since you asked so nicely, if you get called here there's a much better chance that you're beat than there was before. If you get raised youcan fold confidently, and since you've got the button if you get called you can likely see the river for free if you want. Better than folding a big pair to a weak bet.

I know you were worried more about the second hand, but the first one is where you need help.

In any case, hand 2 you have position, and you know SB likes to bluff. So calling him down is probably better than scaring him off. If you think he'll fight back raise him. I think you want to get his stack in here.

[boondockst]

I say again, I do not intend to make money playing KK in a 5-way pot on an ace-high flop at PP NL25. I saw no point in a raise in light of future bets i'd have to make/call. I was calling the $0.25 purely for the two-outer on the turn. Yes, I understand how to represent a hand 3-way or less and thus do NOT "always get bluffed out of pots."

And yes, your table selection might be improvable. I patiently wait for tables which seem looser than average PP NL25 and usually some with multiple stacks at ~65% of the max buy-in who usually drive the action.

[boondockst]

And i love how lurkers take blatant sarcasm to be sincere ignorance.

[mosuavea]

I dont respond to many no limit hands as I have only been playing for roughly 10,000 hands after coverting from limit but here are my thoughts:

Hand 1: I think you have to raise more than $1 with those two limpers to you already, I probably make it a $1.5 and go from there, you might not be 5 handed on the flop and thus you could raise with some confidence that you have the best hand.

Hand 2: I think you have to call and proceed with caution if the last hand is any indication, he isnt afraid to bet his PP's or any marginal hand, the overbet is a little odd though, but I still think a call is neccessary.

[FNG]

I just don't understand what action before you leads you to believe you're up against and ace. Was it the way wverybody limp/called your small raise, the flop checks, or the minimum bet?

[Mathemagician]

Hand 1: I must be just as weak-tight as you because if I raise a high PP preflop, get 4 callers, and an ace falls I'm pretty much done with the hand right there, too. Raising the flop is not a terrible idea if you think they'll ALL give you credit for AA/AK and fold a weaker ace, but not a particularly good idea either. I think it's a judgement call depending on your image, the table's ability to let go of TPGK, and how often you've been raising preflop/betting flop recently. However, I do call their dumbass tiny bets to the river hoping to spike a K. Odds are someone will like their hand enough to pay it off (or think you're trying to buy it). I've seen a lot of guys play sets this way and spiking a king will let you stack them no problem.

Can you think of a worse situation for KK than a raised family pot with an ace high flop?

Hand 2 is much tougher call and depends on your read. If he has been just sitting there quietly and suddenly overbets, I give him credit for it and let him have the $1. If he's constantly betting flops, I call or reraise him (depending on how likely he is to play back) and see what he does. As another poster pointed out, however, it is really a nothing pot so you don't want to get killed over it. Most likely, though, the overbet means he has a 3.

Just my 2 cents.

[ipp147]

hmm - just read this thread. When did SSNL get so tetchy?

Anyway,

Hand 1 - I raise a little bit more preflop probably $2 or $2.5. Given the way it played out I would raise that mini bet on the flop from the CO to $3-$4. If I get called then I check behind on the turn and make a river decision based on the players left and the bet size.

Hand 2 - Its a strange bet, how aggro was the SB? I call and see what the button does. If SB pots the turn I can probably find a fold.

[wdeadwyler]

I agree with Boondock here. Im giving up on the flop. Sure, I MAY (very unlikely bot possible) have the best hand, but am I gonna make any money from it? NO. The few times your continuation bet takes the pot down does not make up for the money lost leading in this 5 way pot (IMHO)

[gulebjorn]

hand 1: I agree with the majority (even though redpill is one of them) that giving up on the flop here is just weak. You've have seen no sign of strength at all, so at least make it a 1/2 pot size raise.

In hand 2, call it. If he checks or puts in a small raise on the turn, bet the pot.

The only problem i see with calling on the flop is that it might encourage him to fire a second barrel on the turn. If he does a good job at it and makes it decent-sized, you would face a difficult decision. If you have a good read and you think you can make that decision if it comes up later, call on the flop. If you want to avoid this, raise the flop. He'll probably fold or push. If he just calls, see what happens on the turn. You still have position.

[spoohunter]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1) I might have raised to about $4 on the flop to see if I could take it there. I don't think you necessarily played Hand 1 bad because over the long run, KK doesn't make it's EV on Ace high flops. So I'm saying that you didn't win money or lose money on Hand 1. I think probably folding right there on the turn or playing it like you did over the long run is probably +EV because someone will have the ace the majority of the time. Really, though, you should decide on the flop whether someone has an Ace or not and stick with it. Although, you probably had some nice implied odds had a King hit on the turn.

Hand 2) you call, what else. See what he does on the turn. He could be betting an underpair or a 3. If he comes back hard on the turn, I probably fold it as your kicker is no good.

[/ QUOTE ]


I've been waiting for this moment. Redpill, I agree with your advice 100%. Hand #2 especially, raising here is a pretty bad idea.

[mother_brain]

I really like reraising to five on hand two. Maybe i'm wierd. You think theres a better time than heads up flopping trips to try to get this guy?