Fear and Loathing on Every Street - PP 15/30 [Archive]

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Sully

06-03-2005, 03:30 AM

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Lots of hands on both opponents -
BB: 23/6; Aggression: 1.39; Went to showdown 31% Won 52%
UTG: 36/7; Aggression .59; Went to showdown 42% Won 50%

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (9.66 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, Hero calls, BB calls.

I had put UTG on a big pair, and his check raise almost convinced me that I was beat. There was a part of me that considered folding this hand here for the first time ever. But I have to figure that he waits for the turn most of the time, and if I am in trouble, I have outs.

So I call? Is this an obvious reraise with the BB involved?

Turn: (7.83 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls.

Elation mixed with pain. Like sleeping with Anglina Jolie, and she accidentally knees you in the nuts. I can't stop here, but it hurts at the same time. The flop flush draw check-raise happens all day in the PP 15/30.

I'm pretty lost now. So I raise, planning to lose the pot.

Why won't the BB fold? Or raise? Or something?

River: (13.83 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, Hero calls, BB calls.

Should I have checked this down in the first place? I'm WAY too scared to reraise.

Final Pot: 19.83 BB

W. Deranged

06-03-2005, 03:35 AM

My question is what in God's name is the BB doing??? AQ played like a very passive small child? I've gotta think you have them beat, but...

I would not reraise the river here. Given that a flush draw is quite likely, I would get out of hand here. I think letting this river check through is pretty weak without a really strong read. If in doubt, you probably have the weird BB beat and he'll pad the pot those times you're ahead in order to offset some of the pain from those times you get check-raised by a flush.

The Truth

06-03-2005, 03:50 AM

3 bet the flop, lots of hands you still have smashed here, and you gotta put pressure on BB.
Rest of hand looks fine, hope you took it down.

Nigel

06-03-2005, 05:06 AM

This is where I get shown ThJh and then I go vomit.

Nigel

philnewall

06-03-2005, 08:32 AM

What makes you think UTG has a big pair? he didn't cap preflop so AA is v. unlikely and so is QQ with that Q on the flop there.

SoBeDude

06-03-2005, 09:51 AM

Your title concerns me.

1. I get KK preflop and get action I'm elated.

2. in a 3way pot I have an overpair and I'm getting action, I'm elated.

3. I make top set against 2 morons on a possible flush board, I'm elated.

4. I get check-raised on the river, and expect to be shown a smaller set, two pair with KQ, or AK.

If I get shown TJ or a flush I move on to the next hand.

So whats with the fear and loathing?

Oh, and raise the flop!!

And you must have very few hands on your two opponents for them to have those numbers. no one sees 31-42% of the flops and wins at showdown 50%. So these stats must be meangingless.

And no, checking behind on the river is sacrelige.

Yea, it sucks when Angelina Jolie knees u in the bals.

-Scott

PokerProdigy

06-03-2005, 10:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yea, it sucks when Angelina Jolie knees u in the bals.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, she's done this to you guys too?

sfer

06-03-2005, 10:38 AM

I expect you to win this pot.

Senor Choppy

06-03-2005, 01:45 PM

I don't understand your concerns on the flop at all. What hand are you putting UTG exactly? He didn't cap with QQ? He has a PFR of 6% for god's sake, what hand along with a Q32 board beats KK here? I'd say he's got a medium pair, AQ, or a diamond draw, all of which you beat.

On the river it's incredibly likely he's got the flush. Someone that's 36/7 is exactly the type of player to slowplay a hand like this.

1800GAMBLER

06-03-2005, 02:36 PM

You are playing way too scared.

kt421

06-03-2005, 03:50 PM

The biggest concern I have (assuming the stats you provided have any relevance and, since you said you had lots of hand, I'll make that assumption) is that UTG has a very low aggression factor but is playing this hand very aggressively.

Given that, I think you lose this hand. And maybe to AQ diamonds. It fits his line pf (except, perhaps, for the lack of a cap), on the flop (as you said, flop flush-draw c/r, plus tptk), turn (given your call on his flop raise, he wants to be sure to get a bet in, then when you raise he either puts you on the set and figures to trap you on the river, or his natural passivity re-asserts itself) and river.

DcifrThs

06-03-2005, 03:51 PM

wow. i stopped reading after your "i put him on a big pair" comment on the flop.

i dunno when people stopped raising AQ UTG but i know i still do it...and is that not a possible hand he can have? AND note that he didn't even cap preflop...so when did QQ stop capping preflop 3 ways? and same for AA ... in fact id bet money right now he didn't have a big pair if you gave me the hand action and player description up until your flop call of his check raise.

and the fact that you called that 3 ways with that board is nuts unless you planned to raise the turn, which i dont agree w/ because a diamond turn will both slow you and them down. you must 3 bet that flop almost every single time.

-Barron

PS- when the experts say "dont put people on exact hand" they are indeed correct...look what it did to your play on that flop.

Sully

06-03-2005, 04:35 PM

You guys are completely correct. I've been trying to get away from just "playing my cards" and put more thought into actually placing a player on a range of hands. In this case, I took it way too far and let it hurt me.
It probably didn't help that the hand occurred at the end of a -40BB day, and I certainly wasn't at my best.

I know that I MUST reraise this flop...but besides that, was the rest of the hand horribly played? Considering a reasonable range of hands, I'm beat on the turn a good percentage of the time. I'm not folding, but I think slowing down is reasonable.

jogger08152

06-04-2005, 04:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why won't the BB fold? Or raise? Or something?

[/ QUOTE ] Without knowing the answer to that, I'm not thrilled with your bet. There's no reraise here, after UTG, who you had put on a big pair preflop, but whose play is also consistent with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif down through A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (and Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif & J/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif) or so, played a trap-raise on the end. You may win this hand, but I don't think you're a 55% favorite given his raise, and you're sure to be reraised (and have to pay off) if you're beat.