SnG FAQ question

[Phill S]

Ok, so the new FAQ isnt supposed to be strategy based /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I think an actual stickied and locked thread based on the shadow's thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1918735&page=2&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#Post2146367) should be created. This is an absolute goldmine of info, and if not incorporating it, at least creating a second 'Strategy Links' sticky would be worthwhile.

Someone stated in the FAQ that they dont want people to find aleo's 10+1 thread too easily!?! Whilst a link to a good thread regarding searching the forum is great (if i remember correctly its in the FAQ, if not it should be) there should be a first-stop-shop where people can get a great grounding in strategy.

This will remove a lot of the random noise created by multiple posts on similar topics that have been covered ad nausium in the past (an example that has come up recently has been stop and goes which is in shadow's thread).

Any thoughts on this?

Phill

[citanul]

from what i understand, the general feeling is that stickying something like shadow's thread, or a group of such threads composed of the "best of the best" of strategy posts is not what a lot of people want.

most people who have put in their dues and thought and read and looked for posts and scoured the archives resent the idea that a new visitor to the forum should or could just be handed such a list of the "best there is."

there is some merit to that. it's a lot of hard work getting better and doing the research.

it's not entirely necessary that when people ask a question similar to an old one on strategy, they are forwarded to say, "the best post on stop and goes ever." the bigger problem i think occurs when there's 5 posts in the same day about stop and goes, none of them with a point. and stuff like that.

citanul

[Phill S]

I can sort of see where your coming from, and as a relative outsider to 2+2 (i lurk more than i post, thats for sure) i wouldnt dream of trying to impose my opinion on the forum.

At the same time, as a forum dedicated to teaching strategy, giving someone a step up isnt the most inconsistant thing, no?

As for the argument that some have 'put in their dues' - why not just follow the line to its ultimate conclusion and never respond to noobies, and put the cut off as players who have been members for, say 6 months, to make it into the elite clique here - and only then do they get answers to questions?

Again, just my opinion. If the general concensous is that keeping stategy in the archives, and keeping any stickies as general, so be it, but id be interested to hear opinions from more posters here.

Phill

[citanul]

a) i never said that that opinion was *my opinion*

b) it's not like those people are saying that newbies should be blocked from the information, just that they should have to go looking for it.

citanul

[Scuba Chuck]

Personally, I don't mind a link to Aleo's "beginner's guide" in the FAQ. And frankly, many of the old topics discussed in the Shadows thread are repeatedly here monthly, but with different information, and different posters. I concur with Citanul, that I am less interested in the Shadows thread being stickied. But I am more interested in what is your motivation that it be stickied? How can stickying that to the top of this forum at all times benefit you? If you can make a positive argument for this, I'd be more inclined to consider.

In the end, this forum is what we as a collective make it. What makes this interesting for us who frequently post is to see a new hand, with a similar situation, but something is tweaked a little different. I also enjoy seeing posters "grow" into their success and watching learning curves. So anything that removes the elements that keep older posters here as long as possible is a terrible thing.

Scuba

[Phill S]

Nice post, nicely put.

I have no benefit either way, to be honest. Maybe its just a karma situation /images/graemlins/cool.gif

I cant put up a huge fight here, and i wont. I guess im just up for helping the newbs as much as possible (and in many areas i fall into this catagory), but i very much see the angle you come from.

Phill

[jgunnip]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess im just up for helping the newbs as much as possible (and in many areas i fall into this catagory), but i very much see the angle you come from.


[/ QUOTE ]

I feel this way too. I spent over three years posting on a 2+2 like fantasy baseball forum where in depth strategy discussins like those seen so often here take place. And new life to the forum was great and needed for its success. That being said. All it takes for a new ambitious poster is to ask, and usually she or he will recieve a kind pointer in the right direction. I think this, although simple, generally serves the forum well in that it gives newbies a) a hint in how to search for information on these boards and b)gives them a chance to introduce themselves and allow other forum members a chance to get to know, or at least become aware of a new member to the forums. I don't think we should treat the information here as some big secret by any means, but a little effort to extract valuable information that is by all means free, isn't asking that much from browsers and new members.

my 2 cents.

[something smells]

I am a long time poster (over a year and an "old hand") I am choosing not to post under my other screen name.

Quite frankly there is an attitude of screw the new guy!!! In terms of "they have to do the work to find the the good strategy threads," how the hell is a noob supposed to know the aleo guide exists? In terms of "all they have to do is post," B.S. many of you know you take great delight in flaming posts you see as stupid. If a "noob" posts a hand he is not sure he should have been in, it is automatically a "bad beat" post. If they present the hand without the information that shows they lost the hand, then they "didn't give enough information." If a hand is posted where the person is proud of how they played they are flamed because of "course it should be played that way" or "your an idiot it really should have been played this way."

Whatever, I think the FAQ is great, I just hate you all pretending that keeping information from the newer posters is really an effort to help them. If you really don't want strategy fine. But if you earnestly beleive this forum is about helping others achieve their potential, then at least try to be helpful when you respond to new posters. Look at how Lorinda responds to new posters and try to do the same. While there are others who are helpful, she consistanly works to help everyone and she does it respectfully.

Enough of my rant, flame away!!

[citanul]

I'm about to make a thread about this subject, it will be intuitive, and well, it's part of the reason that it makes me vomit to have to go around posting links to the goddamn aleo guide all the time.

citanul

[something smells]

What the hell are u saying? try to make sense Citanul

are u going to make a thread about how to be respectful when you critize? Or, are you going to make a new strategy thread? Or, I just don't get what you are saying?

[citanul]

you'll see in less than 2 minutes.

citanul

bear with me, i'm still waking up.

indeed, my prior post made like, no sense, sorry about that. but now the new thread is up, and i guess that is something.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
But I am more interested in what is your motivation that it be stickied? How can stickying that to the top of this forum at all times benefit you? If you can make a positive argument for this, I'd be more inclined to consider.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it would benefit me at all. I do think it would benefit new posters. I don't see why that's not motivation enough.

[something smells]

the new thread is great and sorry for my rant. I was unkind.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Quite frankly there is an attitude of screw the new guy!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree 100%. I think this particular forum (STT) is one of the most helpful. And despite my numbers of posts, I'm a relative newbie to this forum, so I think I have a decent frame of reference. In the year I posted in the limit forum, I received probably a total of 10 PMs. In the 3 months I've been posting over here, I've gotten 10 times that.

[ QUOTE ]
In terms of "they have to do the work to find the the good strategy threads," how the hell is a noob supposed to know the aleo guide exists?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's productive to churn out AM clones. If someone is having trouble, you'll get the inevitable "I can't beat these loose idiots!" post and someone will point them to it. That said, I really don't have a problem linking to that, since it's a starting point, not a be-all, end-all. I see it as the WLLH of STT.

[ QUOTE ]
In terms of "all they have to do is post," B.S. many of you know you take great delight in flaming posts you see as stupid. If a "noob" posts a hand he is not sure he should have been in, it is automatically a "bad beat" post. If they present the hand without the information that shows they lost the hand, then they "didn't give enough information." If a hand is posted where the person is proud of how they played they are flamed because of "course it should be played that way" or "your an idiot it really should have been played this way."

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, I think your exaggerating a bit here, but I can certainly see how someone might feel this way.

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever, I think the FAQ is great, I just hate you all pretending that keeping information from the newer posters is really an effort to help them. If you really don't want strategy fine. But if you earnestly beleive this forum is about helping others achieve their potential, then at least try to be helpful when you respond to new posters. Look at how Lorinda responds to new posters and try to do the same. While there are others who are helpful, she consistanly works to help everyone and she does it respectfully.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is where I think the forum as a whole gains from so-called noob questions. Although they will often get the stock answers, this is not always the case. Occasionally, you'll see a few standard responses and then a vet will come in with "I know the standard line here is blah, but I normally do this instead." It often stimulates a whole new line of thinking.

The other benefit is to the intermediate players (where I consider myself to fit). These people will come in and respond to the noobs' questions. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. In either case, the forum will quickly let them know. You can learn as much from being wrong as from being right. With a big list of "here is how you play this" posts, this discussion is eliminated.

[ QUOTE ]
Enough of my rant, flame away!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you see this as a counterargument and not a flame -- it certainly wasn't intended to be. These are just my thoughts off the top of my head.

[sahala]

Some stickied threads on SNG fundamentals would be beneficial if only to cut down on the "I have 68% ROI is it sustainable" questions and resultant hazing.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Some stickied threads on SNG fundamentals would be beneficial if only to cut down on the "I have 68% ROI is it sustainable" questions and resultant hazing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how an SNG fundamentals thread would cut down on those types of post. I think a much more effective method would be a line in the FAQ that says, "Don't post your ROI and ask if it's sustainable."

[sahala]

Maybe a "New Posters: Before you Post Read This" thread.

[Phill S]

I have to agree. And if memory serves it is in the FAQ.

This is less about the stuff like ROI, terms of play, how to post hands etc. This is more about strategy for play - a kind of E-Book for SnGs if i was looking for an analogy.

Phill

[beeyjay]

I think an important idea might be that you can only learn so much by reading someone elses post on a strategic concept. it really doesn't sink in until you have fully contemplated it yourself (often repeatedly) and applied it. I really feel like I learn more on here by reading a question and then responding to it as it forces me to think about what i would do in that situation. Then i read the other responses to the post to see if I agree/disagree with the suggestions of others. (especially posters that I have a lot of respect for)

If everythiing that needed to be discussed was just linked to it would limit the discussion and be more like a textbook in my opinion. The nice part of citanuls FAQ would be that it would get rid of some of the more obnoxious questions that do have very cut and dry answers and are really not benefitting anyone by answering. eg. you need x amount of buyins this isnt going to change no matter how much you discuss it.

[beeyjay]

I think though the tone on this board is often a little less than ideal the advice is really in there. If somebody says somebody is dumb and they obviously should have played the hand like this instead I mean granted there are nicer ways it could have been said but the info is still there. Hell maybe its better cuz it jars the person into thinking wow I was way off here I need to really look at this instead of just writing it off. I dont come here to feel good about myself by hoping nobody disagrees with me or by degrading other posters. I do come here to get better and hear the honest opinions of other posters. I think this honesty is in fact quite good and is why this forum seems to be the most productive I have really found on 2+2.

I mean honestly a lot of the people here are playing for what amounts to loads of money for most people (especially at the age of a lot of the posters here). AFter losing a lot (whether that is 10s, 100s, 1000s, 10000s) its not surprising people are a little bitter. I think that its still good these people post their strategic advice even if the tone is less than cordial.