A shorthanded hand I felt lost on

[PuckNPoker]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

The table just went from 9 to 5 (two left and 2 sat out all at the end of the last hand) handed, the blinds are butt pucker tight UTG (who folded) and button (I have all of 15 hands on him) are super loose

Flop: (5.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

Villian is a AF of 1 over 15 hands, not enough hands to really get a read, he's shown down only K9,K8,55 and AJs (he 3 bet with AJs..)

Turn: (4.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Is this standard? Or does anyone think Ace high is good here and I should call?

[shadow29]

This is fine.

[Kumubou]

Looks standard.

What is your plan if you spike one of your cards to pair up? Call down with the 9s (especially since it puts 4 to a straight) and checkraise with an ace? I might fold this on the turn, due to your 9 outs being dirtier than Dirk McGurk.

-K

[irishpint]

uh why not 3bet the flop? we have OESD, backdoor nut flush, and an overcard....

[cmwck]

Looks fine. Shorthanded does not mean ace high is like top pair in full ring. Ace-high is useful if you're against a maniac, or the board is paired, or you have the nut high card.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
uh why not 3bet the flop? we have OESD, backdoor nut flush, and an overcard....

[/ QUOTE ]

We are HU and I'd rather not a) kill my action later and b) invest more when I miss.

[irishpint]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uh why not 3bet the flop? we have OESD, backdoor nut flush, and an overcard....

[/ QUOTE ]

We are HU and I'd rather not a) kill my action later and b) invest more when I miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

we have mucho outs against an overzealous BB. it may get him to slow up.

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uh why not 3bet the flop? we have OESD, backdoor nut flush, and an overcard....

[/ QUOTE ]

We are HU and I'd rather not a) kill my action later and b) invest more when I miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

we have mucho outs against an overzealous BB. it may get him to slow up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bad part is we are against the button, therefore OOP. We have 8 good outs, 1.5 for a BDFD, and 3 for the ace, but the ace may be no good. So I'll say 2.5 outs for the ace. So that gives us 12 outs. With all these outs, I believe our pot odds are 3 to one. Since there are only two players including hero, that is a negative EV situation to 3 bet. Plus it kills out implied payoff odds if we hit.

[irishpint]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uh why not 3bet the flop? we have OESD, backdoor nut flush, and an overcard....

[/ QUOTE ]

We are HU and I'd rather not a) kill my action later and b) invest more when I miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

we have mucho outs against an overzealous BB. it may get him to slow up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bad part is we are against the button, therefore OOP. We have 8 good outs, 1.5 for a BDFD, and 3 for the ace, but the ace may be no good. So I'll say 2.5 outs for the ace. So that gives us 12 outs. With all these outs, I believe our pot odds are 3 to one. Since there are only two players including hero, that is a negative EV situation to 3 bet. Plus it kills out implied payoff odds if we hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're not taking into account
1. fold equity
2. a free turn card (perhaps)

we can drop this easy on the river if we dont pick anything up on the turn.

[SteveL91]

[ QUOTE ]
uh why not 3bet the flop? we have OESD, backdoor nut flush, and an overcard....

[/ QUOTE ]

If we had position, I think I'd strongly consider 3-betting for all the reasons you mentioned. Being OOP really complicates things, and I'm not a big fan of trying for a free card HU OOP unless I have a read. I just don't think you're getting a free turn card given the flop texture and action.

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uh why not 3bet the flop? we have OESD, backdoor nut flush, and an overcard....

[/ QUOTE ]

We are HU and I'd rather not a) kill my action later and b) invest more when I miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

we have mucho outs against an overzealous BB. it may get him to slow up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bad part is we are against the button, therefore OOP. We have 8 good outs, 1.5 for a BDFD, and 3 for the ace, but the ace may be no good. So I'll say 2.5 outs for the ace. So that gives us 12 outs. With all these outs, I believe our pot odds are 3 to one. Since there are only two players including hero, that is a negative EV situation to 3 bet. Plus it kills out implied payoff odds if we hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're not taking into account
1. fold equity
2. a free turn card (perhaps)

we can drop this easy on the river if we dont pick anything up on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can we get a free card when we are OOP? Are we going to 3 bet and then check the turn? What if the button bets? We wasted a SB when we didn't have to.

Fold Equity? Is the button going to raise and then fold the flop? Are they going to fold the turn? They can't fold the turn if you check to them. I think the 3 bet wold be great if you could trap others in with you, but heads up three betting has little or no value.

[irishpint]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uh why not 3bet the flop? we have OESD, backdoor nut flush, and an overcard....

[/ QUOTE ]

We are HU and I'd rather not a) kill my action later and b) invest more when I miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

we have mucho outs against an overzealous BB. it may get him to slow up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bad part is we are against the button, therefore OOP. We have 8 good outs, 1.5 for a BDFD, and 3 for the ace, but the ace may be no good. So I'll say 2.5 outs for the ace. So that gives us 12 outs. With all these outs, I believe our pot odds are 3 to one. Since there are only two players including hero, that is a negative EV situation to 3 bet. Plus it kills out implied payoff odds if we hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're not taking into account
1. fold equity
2. a free turn card (perhaps)

we can drop this easy on the river if we dont pick anything up on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can we get a free card when we are OOP? Are we going to 3 bet and then check the turn? What if the button bets? We wasted a SB when we didn't have to.

Fold Equity? Is the button going to raise and then fold the flop? Are they going to fold the turn? They can't fold the turn if you check to them. I think the 3 bet wold be great if you could trap others in with you, but heads up three betting has little or no value.

[/ QUOTE ]

eh, so it sounds like im wrong here. to my credit my first few responses have me saying we're against the BB in which case he might be defending kinda crazy like. (go read my old posts if you dont believe me!)

since i have a feeling none of our draws will come in, i drop this pf i guess.

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I might fold this on the turn, due to your 9 outs being dirtier than Dirk McGurk.

-K

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt even consider folding the turn, and looking back I still think I wouldnt, I have 8 outs for the OESD, 3 ace outs, but all I need is 7.5 outs and there is implied odds to consider.

If a 9 fell I'm not sure what i'd do, I'd certainly hate it and consider it even worse than Ace high. If an Ace fell I'd check call, if I complete my straight I check raise the river.

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
uh why not 3bet the flop? we have OESD, backdoor nut flush, and an overcard....

[/ QUOTE ]

I did consider that, but for all the reasons mentioned already and the fact that I have a thin edge at best IF i'm ahead I decided against raising, if I wasnt out of position raising becomes much more attractive (for the free card).

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
since i have a feeling none of our draws will come in, i drop this pf i guess.

[/ QUOTE ]
?!?