Post flop play

[Scuba Chuck]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t900)
Button (t1260)
Hero (t530)
BB (t1880)
UTG (t1615)
MP1 (t605)
MP2 (t1210)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t100) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t50</font>, Hero calls t50.

Turn: (t200) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t50</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero .....

Thoughts on the flop and here on the turn??

[Voltron87]

I am having absolute hell with these situations, I don't see many reasons to play the hand pf or on the flop.

[Eevee]

I would fold this on the flop. But if you feel compelled to play this board with your J9, I think the better move would be to make a decent bet on the flop and see what ur opp does. If called, u can muck that easily. Giving him the betting impetus on the flop gets u no information.

-EV

[valenzuela]

once that idiot tries a weak steal attempt my chips are on the middle. U need to be ahead of him like 75% of the time to make the push profitable which I think its very realistic. Also I would raise preflop to 150...pushing most flops if he calls , folding if re-raised but i suppose this isnt the topic.

[KingDan]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold this on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you are folding this flop why are you calling PF. I raise flop. If called push turn.

[curtains]

This is a clear allin preflop in basically any game.

[valenzuela]

care to explain mathematicly why?

[Eevee]

I think this is a clear preflop push also. But considering the completion, I dont think I can commit to this hand with mid pair. If I call the completion, Im looking for the jack. with mid pair...its lookin like a fold

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
care to explain mathematicly why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can wave my hands.

J9o has a slight edge vs. a random hand. Opponent has a random hand. Opponent will fold many of the hands that are favored over J9o. Hero's stack could use those 75 chips.

[valenzuela]

Sry but ure explination doesnt satisfy me, if villain calls with top 25% hero is in trouble /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
Sry but ure explination doesnt satisfy me, if villain calls with top 25% hero is in trouble /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

In this situation villain can just about coast to the bubble. I don't see why he'd call with top 25% hands here.

EDIT: I wonder if a push is still +CEV even if villain calls with top 25%...

[valenzuela]

mmm..i seem to getting a handle of this.. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif..

[microbet]

It depends on the hands of course, but if villian calls with top 25% of hands it is slightly +$EV by ICM.

If the villian is a bit tighter the $EV goes up, but not by leaps and bounds.

It is certainly an opportunity to push, and if those opportunities are few and far between, it is a good push, IMO.

But, in general, I'm not sure it is clear. It is a pretty small $EV gain, probably not more than .3%.

Chances to open push from the SB with this many players are pretty rare, so I'm generally down with the push, but a loose BB could change my mind and I bet there are a lot of strong players that fold here - or complete and try and gain even more $EV post-flop.

[curtains]

There is almost zero chance you will find an opponent who will call with 25% of hands here in the BB, and I think this is pretty obvious.

[microbet]

Almost no chance big stack calls with A2, K9 or QT in an 800 chip game? (those are the dregs of the top 25%)

I certainly don't fall out of my chair in shock here when I'm called by a hand I dominate.

Edit: That said, I'm really only arguing that it is close.

[curtains]

I think most of those hands are pretty unlikely....of course not impossible

[microbet]

And just to be argumentative - Those are the dregs of the 25% calling range. So if you see yourself getting called by those hands (and none worse) in this situation like 1 out of 16 times, that means that EVERY opponent called with the top 25%.

[curtains]

haha ok, I just know that I dont get called 1/4 times in that situation (allin from SB with 10x the BB) or even close to it.

[adanthar]

I concur, this is an easy push PF.

It's also a really easy CR push on the flop and an easier one on the turn.

[Scuba Chuck]

Finally, someone who can talk post flop.

[microbet]

If BB calls with top 20% of hands, it is +$EV to push with any two. So on the bottom side, do you push with any two?

My initial thoughts were that J9o was a close push wouldn't have picked this as a spot to push with trash.

On the top side, I'm sure you don't push with AA or KK. Where do you stop pushing because you want a call?