Ed Miller "Going Pro" article

[OldTexan]

In Ed's article this month, he says:

[ QUOTE ]
Say you estimate that you can generate approximately 2 BB/100 hands playing $3-$6 limit hold eem. You should count on playing multiple tables, usually at least four, so you might see about 300 hands per hour. Thus, your theoretical win rate is about 6 BB/hour or $36 an hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

My question is -- does anyone see these tables -- $3/$6 -- tightening and improving in quality of players (this year especially) such that it isn't possible to "4-table" them anymore. It seems that it takes much more focus and careful knowledge of players to make money at these tables lately -- most players seem to be <20% VPIP and very aggressive.

I use PT to find the best tables I can, but perhaps I'm not doing it the way I should.

Any constructive comments would be appreciated...

[BarronVangorToth]

I think we're FAR away from seeing any reasonable level of competence at the $3-$6 level from John Q. Sixpack...

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[sfwusc]

Really.

Have you seen some of the play there. Awful.

-SFWUSC

[ptmusic]

I haven't seen the SS online tables get tougher this year, but I can say with certainty that, in my experience, live tables are MUCH SOFTER than online tables. I've made 3/4ths of my profit live, although I've played online more. Online is soft too, but live is better in my experience.

I don't understand why Ed believes that online play is so much easier. More profitable? Perhaps, if you multitable, bonus whore, and rake return. Softer/looser? Not for me.

-ptmusic

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why Ed believes that online play is so much easier. More profitable? Perhaps, if you multitable, bonus whore, and rake return. Softer/looser? Not for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said online play was easier. I said that it's more profitable by far.

[Beavis68]

pretty hard to play 300 hands an hour live.

[ptmusic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why Ed believes that online play is so much easier. More profitable? Perhaps, if you multitable, bonus whore, and rake return. Softer/looser? Not for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said online play was easier. I said that it's more profitable by far.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough - is it fair to say that you don't believe that online play is necessarily "easier", but that it is easier to make a profit?

From my experience (and actually from what I've read about your experience), I've been more profitable with live play.

That's because I find higher stakes live (e.g. Commerce 9/18) to be softer than lower stakes online (e.g. Party Poker 2/4). Commerce is full of players who play too loosely preflop and go too far with their marginal hands.

These are exactly the kinds of opponents you talk about in SSHE. And SSHE is a big reason for my profits live and online, by the way!

Back to the recent article: I really enjoyed it. But could you expand on the following sentence?

"Playing live for a living drastically increases the bankroll and skill level required to generate a given income."

I think I know the bankroll reasoning (gas, rake, tipping, higher-stakes-to-offset-the-fewer-hands-and-bonuses), but why is more skill needed to make a living playing poker live?

Thanks,

-ptmusic

[ptmusic]

[ QUOTE ]
pretty hard to play 300 hands an hour live.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, but it's pretty hard to play anywhere near your best when playing on enough tables to get 300 hands in per hour. Your BB/hr will suffer.

Plus, the automatic shufflers at the live casino I play have added some hands per hour, even as much as 33% for some dealers (from ~30/hr to ~40/hr).

There are other advantages to live play as well, such as remembering players better and picking up more tells. I use Pokertracker online (of course), but I think I have an even bigger edge in that department when I play live.

-ptmusic

-ptmusic

[Ed Miller]

Here's the bottom line. Multitabling, you can get 300-600 hands per hour in. Live you get 30-40 hands per hour. While I agree with you that live play features many "fringe benefits"... and some not-so-fringe ones... over online play, you simply can't make up for the 8x or more hands per hour you get online. You can't even come close.

You can multitable as low as $3-$6 with a $5,000 bankroll (plus personal savings) for a healthy living. If you want to make an equivalent living playing live, we're talking at least $15-$30 and more like $20-$40 with a $20,000 bankroll or more.

And if you can beat that live $20-$40 game for $40/hour for your decent living, you can use that same time and bankroll and multitable Party $15-$30 or $10-$20 6max and make $200/hour.

I played/play live, not because it's more profitable, but because it's more fun for me. If I played poker primarily for the cash, I'd play online, and it isn't close. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[uncleshady]

Im pretty much a rookie, but I have an opinion of this. Ive played 2-4 Holdem live and all sorts of microlimits on the net. The pros of net play outweigh the cons of live play x10.

Live: smoke filled casino
Net: comforts of home
Live: 40 hands per hour
Net: two or three tables at once (for me)
Live: free drinks still cost a buck (tip)
Net: drinks in the fridge
Live: poor table selection, almost no prior knowledge, cant avoid the sharks
Net: Get up and find a new table
Live: win a 10 pot, pay 10% rake, then a dollar tip
Net: win a 10 pot, pay 50 cents rake, no tip.
Live: dollar an hour comp for crappy buffet or whatever
Net: Clear a 100 bonus while you play

I used to be a big fan of live poker, but I'm not so sure anymore...

[Izenra]

here are the expense of a canadian 18 years old(me) :

0 $for rent and utilities ( If I live alone, 400)

0 $ car payment(no car)

0$ for gasoline(^)

0$ for car insurance(^)

0$ for health insurance

0$ for student loan payments

50$ for food (500 if I live alone)

$50 for Internet access

0 for phone

150 for clothes and grooming expenses

1100$ if I live alone, 250$ if I live with parents!

Nice article Ed Miller.

[ptmusic]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the bottom line. Multitabling, you can get 300-600 hands per hour in. Live you get 30-40 hands per hour. While I agree with you that live play features many "fringe benefits"... and some not-so-fringe ones... over online play, you simply can't make up for the 8x or more hands per hour you get online. You can't even come close.

You can multitable as low as $3-$6 with a $5,000 bankroll (plus personal savings) for a healthy living. If you want to make an equivalent living playing live, we're talking at least $15-$30 and more like $20-$40 with a $20,000 bankroll or more.

And if you can beat that live $20-$40 game for $40/hour for your decent living, you can use that same time and bankroll and multitable Party $15-$30 or $10-$20 6max and make $200/hour.

I played/play live, not because it's more profitable, but because it's more fun for me. If I played poker primarily for the cash, I'd play online, and it isn't close. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for expanding. If I had to choose right now without trying both fulltime myself (one at a time!), I'd go with online. But for some players (me?), I bet it's closer than you think.

For some players, playing 300-600 hands/hour even decently is a tall order. I'm single-tabling most of the time, and after 17,000 tracked hands online (since I bought PokerTracker), the online average is very close to 55 hands/hour/table. So 300-600 hands/hour is about 5-10 tables at the same time.

Furthermore, my experience is that playing just one table at the $2/4 level online is tougher than playing the $20/40 at Commerce. So I can hardly comprehend playing PartyPoker $10/20 6max at 5-10 tables at once! You've got to have some serious skills for that! And I'll admit it: I don't have those multitabling skills at this point.

Plus, you get all-you-can-eat free food at the Commerce when you play $15/30 or higher (and it ain't bad food at all!), and thus some of your overhead is cut down.

That said, I'm getting into bonus-whoring and rake-returning lately, and I'm already making a decent profit playing online, so it may end up where I make the most money.

Thanks for the article, and I look forward to the follow-ups.

-ptmusic

[Ed Miller]

Also note that being in the LA area, you have perhaps the juiciest live mid-limit environment in the world. In most other areas of the country (or world, for that matter), the choice between online and live, profitwise, is even more clear than it is in LA.

[mcphail7]

Besides the ethical dilemma of "cheating" why aren't there more computer programs playing at the micro limit tables. If you say a computer couldn't win, you are wrong, a tiny bit of discipline could easily beat people at these tiny limits. Are there programs out now doing this?

[ptmusic]

[ QUOTE ]
Also note that being in the LA area, you have perhaps the juiciest live mid-limit environment in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, buddy!!! Is Vegas really tougher than LA at the mid-limits (20/40ish)? Because the last time I was there, I was still playing 4/8, and man, that was a cakewalk. Maybe the deck was just smacking me in the face all weekend, but I did not want to leave the Sahara!

-ptmusic

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also note that being in the LA area, you have perhaps the juiciest live mid-limit environment in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, buddy!!! Is Vegas really tougher than LA at the mid-limits (20/40ish)? Because the last time I was there, I was still playing 4/8, and man, that was a cakewalk. Maybe the deck was just smacking me in the face all weekend, but I did not want to leave the Sahara!

-ptmusic

[/ QUOTE ]

The $20-$40 games in Vegas are soft too, but I'd say the LA games are definitely better, and furthermore, once you hit $40-$80 and up LA really gets signficantly better.

[Jim C]

[ QUOTE ]
Multitabling, you can get 300-600 hands per hour in. Live

[/ QUOTE ]

600 an hour??!!!!

Holy crap! I struggle to keep a good solid game at 5/10 at 400 hands an hour and I prop for a living.

I won't say it can't be done, but myself, anything over 4 tables when multitabling, my quality of play severely decreases especially when doing 8 hour shifts.

Oh.. and about quality of play. My observations is that the quality of players have decreased at the lower levels of both online and live play. However live games are much softer than online games, and that online play is more profitable for the reasons already mentioned.

And if you do turn pro, I think its critical to become a prop.

[ptmusic]

How do you become a prop? Are you talking about bonuses/rake returns, or some other type of work-for-hire setup directly with the poker site?

-ptmusic

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
The $20-$40 games in Vegas are soft too, but I'd say the LA games are definitely better, and furthermore, once you hit $40-$80 and up LA really gets signficantly better.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does "better" mean here? Is LA more or less profitable than vegas at 40/80 and above? i.e. does better mean better games or better players at 40/80+?

[tolbiny]

"600 an hour??!!!!

Holy crap! I struggle to keep a good solid game at 5/10 at 400 hands an hour and I prop for a living.

I won't say it can't be done, but myself, anything over 4 tables when multitabling, my quality of play severely decreases especially when doing 8 hour shifts.

Oh.. and about quality of play. My observations is that the quality of players have decreased at the lower levels of both online and live play. However live games are much softer than online games, and that online play is more profitable for the reasons already mentioned.

And if you do turn pro, I think its critical to become a prop."

You are a lunatic if you are playing 8 hours a day. If you are forced to through your prop aggreement then i would just quit it. 4-6 tabling 5-10 shorthanded is a fairly easy way of putting in 4-600 hands an hour- but if i had to do it 8 hours a day i would jsut get a regular job again. The beauty of poker is i can play 2-4 hours a day and make a decent living.

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The $20-$40 games in Vegas are soft too, but I'd say the LA games are definitely better, and furthermore, once you hit $40-$80 and up LA really gets signficantly better.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does "better" mean here? Is LA more or less profitable than vegas at 40/80 and above? i.e. does better mean better games or better players at 40/80+?

[/ QUOTE ]

Better games in LA, particularly at precisely the $40-$80 level.

[J. Sawyer]

Even if the games are getting tighter they are still very very soft post-flop and will continue to be that way into the distant future.

[Jim C]

PT,

I got my first online job through these guys.

Just send em an enquiry. Lots of info at site too. GL!

http://www.parttimepoker.com/online-poker-prop/index.htm

[Jim C]

I guess Tolbiny 'lunacy' is the opinion of the viewer.

I think its person only works 2-4 hours a day, at a job that pays $100K a year if they work a full time week, and treat it as a job/business.

In fact, rather than lunacy, I would rather call it laziness.

I don't play poker for a living because I want to be slack! I play poker for a living because i am good at it, and I enjoy it.

Its true like all other players i get stale, so every now and then, I ensure I have a bit of poker free time. (maybe go fishing, reading, driving my convertible - but by the time I come back, i'm hungry and missing my poker).

I enjoy my job. Poker is my job. Its not a part time job. Its a full time gig for me.

[gergery]

fyi - this link doesn't work. the site reorg'd so just go to the main site.

-g

[JohnnyPhoenix]

I have a few questions. What do you guys mean by "soft"? Secondly; which games are better; profit wise, Holdem or Stud?

Thanks
Johnny

[mottom]

Hi Ed,

Just curious where you get the $5,000 bankroll figure from for a $3/$6 player. I always hear about 300 BB, or even up to 500, but more than 800? Please explain.

Oh, and thanks for your books. They've made me a ton of money!

[SippinSoma]

Ed would suggest such a huge bankroll for someone who is playing poker as their sole income. The suggestion includes atleast one month's living expenses beside several hundred BBs, in case of emergencies. If you decide poker isn't for you, you don't have to live on the street until you find another job.

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
I use PT to find the best tables I can

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you tell me how to do this?

[OldTexan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I use PT to find the best tables I can

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you tell me how to do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the point of my original post was that I'm not sure I'm doing it as effectively as I should be.

I simply look for tables that have the largest group of the highest VP$IP percentage players I can find. That's the stat I lean on the most. I do check the number of hands the stat is based on as well as look at the PFR & CR %s to see what the passivity / aggression mix is like. But that's about it. That, and seat position -- who's to my (potential) left and right...

If anyone else has some other pointers, I'd love to hear them...

[Jim C]

Oh, and if any more of you guys are interested in becoming props, send me a pm, and I'll send your details to my prop boss who can set you up with a job.

Oh, and about what Ed is saying about online being more profitable.. LISTEN UP! hehehhe

Oh, and Ed - don't tell em all the secrets. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif (just kidding)

:P

[Jim C]

Oldtex, Poker tracker forum explains it fairly clearly, so I will be brief.

You do it by Opening up 4 party poker or whatever tables, and go have a coffe, watch buffy, or play a sng for a half hour.

Come back and its recorded all the stats for all the players.

Its dead easy.

Thats the PT system... (i'll share mine).

I log on to Party, Open 4 tables, and go to bed.

This is EVERY NIGHT. hehehehehheh...

I probably have you on my database.. R U SCARED? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[MicroBob]

I even feel a little guilty when I play live because I'm "wasting valuable poker-time" for the most part.


I play 10/20 live now but it just isn't going to be as profitable as 4 tables of 5/10....or even just a couple tourneys from home, etc.


I only play live once a month or so and don't really consider that to be real 'work'.



My live play has increased a bit the past couple weeks because I qualified for the WSOP. So I wanted to play a couple of area live tourneys to get more comfortable doing that.
Otherwise, my live play just isn't nearly profitable enough to compare with online multi-tabling.




Also - wanted to add that many of the peripheral questions that have been asked in this thread would be better in some other forum because they didn't have much to do with this article for the most part.
Stuff like, "Which is better...Hold-em or Stud?" and "How do I use PT to find the best tables".


Maybe I'm being a nit about this....especially since I'm the king of thread-tangents so much of the time.



Anyway - nice article Ed and looking forward to part-2.
Even when Ed is writing about stuff that I mostly already know about (such as most of GSIH or this article) I still find it to be a very interesting read.

[trader]

do you have a link to that section of pokertracker forum?