Handreading: from 2+2 table (serious game)

[Entity]

10-handed, serious game. Folded to me in MP3, and I raise. Chris DaddyCool coldcalls in the CO. Button folds. SB folds. BB (BigdaddyDVO) calls.

Flop is J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif. BB checks. I check. CDC checks.

Turn is the Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. BB bets. I raise. CDC 3-bets. BB caps. I fold. CDC folds.

What do I have? What does CDC have? What does BB have? What do you think of our play?

Rob

[toss]

I don't think I can ever figure this one out. Not even a range of hands.

Edit: Give us a lil clue.

[xLukex]

YOU HAVE THE GRANNY!!!!!

PLEASE!!!!

[PuckNPoker]

You have AK no diamond
CDC has AQ no diamond.
BB has a flush (missed a check raise on the flop) or possible set.

The only thing I can think of at the moment.

[hicherbie]

sounds like a fun game...is this 15/30?

-hmm curious. CDC folds to a cap after 3 betting and flop check. smells like pocket pair? the flop check doesnt make sense with a pp though...
-i would think you have AK no diamonds or a weak queen.
-BB has top pair with good redraw or two pair?

[VBM]

[ QUOTE ]
10-handed, serious game. Folded to me in MP3, and I raise. Chris DaddyCool coldcalls in the CO. Button folds. SB folds. BB (BigdaddyDVO) calls.

Flop is J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif. BB checks. I check. CDC checks.

Turn is the Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. BB bets. I raise. CDC 3-bets. BB caps. I fold. CDC folds.

What do I have? What does CDC have? What does BB have? What do you think of our play?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

my guess:
you have AQ, no diamonds.
CDC has K K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
BB has Ax/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

2 pair or or a set on the turn would have 6-9 outs to fill up the river; so i don't think that's what CDC has. you would have to call 2 on the turn and wouldn't have odds w/ QJ so that's possible too...?

i figure CDC would 3-bet KK pre-flop tho, so maybe you're the one w/ KK and he's the one w/ AQ..?

[toss]

Entity would probably bet with AK on this flop.

[wyoak]

is this even possible? the lines are so odd, especially CDC's....
BB's probably got a flush, dunno what kind. could be about anything. his line is the only one I can make heads or tails of.
CDC looks like he might have AQ, no diamonds. But I'd think he'd bet the flop with that. I really can't think of anything else that makes any more sense though.
You've got....AK no diamonds? Again, I can't imaginge you not betting the flop with that. Maybe 88 or 99, but again, I'd expect a flop bet. I'm stumped. I'll say AK, no diamonds, and you misclicked check on the flop

[PuckNPoker]

And his opponents know that, and he knows his opponents know that.. etc etc /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[toss]

CDC is going to 3-bet PF with AQo. I think folding the turn with KK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif is bad..

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
CDC has K K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes no sense. Folding when getting 12:1 with the second nut flush draw seems silly. Villain could have two medium diamonds, like 98s, 97s, T9s, T8s.

[hicherbie]

yeah nobody is folding with overpair and redraw to the second nuts. esp not 3-bet to fold. i also doubt theyd be so quick to give BB credit for the flush....

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
10-handed, serious game. Folded to me in MP3, and I raise. Chris DaddyCool coldcalls in the CO. Button folds. SB folds. BB (BigdaddyDVO) calls.

Flop is J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif. BB checks. I check. CDC checks.

Turn is the Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. BB bets. I raise. CDC 3-bets. BB caps. I fold. CDC folds.

What do I have? What does CDC have? What does BB have? What do you think of our play?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]


You have TsTc. CDC has KsQh. BB has AdQs.

I don't like your raise... and I think CDC could call for one more.

KO

[toss]

I sitll think CDC would 3-bet with KQo, unless CDC knows that Enity won't try to steal a liberally in this game. BB just calling on the BB with AQ seems linda weak.

[hicherbie]

i can actually see CDC 3 betting with a mid PP and a diamond.

KQ vs AdQ does make more sense than AK vs AdQ. this is probably right. but either way i cant understand a high ace checking through on this flop.

[PuckNPoker]

AJs no diamond for CDC, it either that or a mid range pp.

Turn went: BB bet, Entity raises to shut out CDC, CDC 3 bets because he knows Entity is trying to shut him out, BB caps, Entity thinks "oh crap they both aint lying and I got little to nothing" and folds, and CDC thinks "I have a weak made hand with little to no redraws to what BB is representing" and folds.

Does this look like an accurate representation of the action?

[toss]

I think this is the closest so far.

[VBM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
CDC has K K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes no sense. Folding when getting 12:1 with the second nut flush draw seems silly. Villain could have two medium diamonds, like 98s, 97s, T9s, T8s.

[/ QUOTE ]

ah hell, in my fantasy world, CDC knows BDV inside out who knows N-T-T inside out who knows CDC inside out, etc etc...

so what do you think CDC has?

[PuckNPoker]

Thinking again, CDC was thinking that Entity was shutting him out but he was going to try and shut out the BB and get heads up with Entity, but they both thought BB was betting with little to nothing and the cap foiled their plans.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
AJs no diamond for CDC, it either that or a mid range pp.

Turn went: BB bet, Entity raises to shut out CDC, CDC 3 bets because he knows Entity is trying to shut him out, BB caps, Entity thinks "oh crap they both aint lying and I got little to nothing" and folds, and CDC thinks "I have a weak made hand with little to no redraws to what BB is representing" and folds.

Does this look like an accurate representation of the action?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is exactly what i think

i do think CDC's play is -EV though

[Shillx]

AJs no diamond for CDC

Wrong. Think about it. The only way he could have this hand is if he is scared that Entity is trying to trap him on the flop. But if he fears a trap, why would he 3-bet turn? It just doesn't make any sense.

Brad

[hicherbie]

indeed, i cant imagine cdc checking any kind of decent hand unless he doesnt want a a cr. if he didnt mind giving a free card then i would think he has some sort of weak draw/weak hand...the cap probably tells him his redraw/current hand is no good. i still think this is most likely a pp.

[SCfuji]

collusion between CDC and DVO. you got pwned.

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
AJs no diamond for CDC

Wrong. Think about it. The only way he could have this hand is if he is scared that Entity is trying to trap him on the flop. But if he fears a trap, why would he 3-bet turn? It just doesn't make any sense.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

K, im wrong. What did they have? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
i do think CDC's play is -EV though

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the "3 bet-fold" line is usually a bad one as well /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ClaytonN]

*grunching

Entity has QT
CDC has 99 with one diamond
BB has two middle diamonds

[hicherbie]

the 3 bet and fold line would seem fine if you had 88d.
;]

[PuckNPoker]

Not after letting the flop get checked around. And then betting into a third diamond and another overcard. It doesnt seem like a good semi-bluff to me.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
i do think CDC's play is -EV though

[/ QUOTE ]

He may have made a mistake preflop (I think so, he thinks he might have as well). Postflop all of our lines make sense, and I think BB's error was probably the largest.

Rob

[hicherbie]

a mistake by not folding?

[toss]

The best I can think is taht you had two non/images/graemlins/diamond.gif high cards, CDC had something like 66,77 and BB had the flush.

[Shillx]

Uhhhhhh okay I can come up with 3 hands here I think.

5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif, Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif

I think that these are the 3 hands (not specific to who is holding what). Close? Donk?

Brad

Edit - There are other hands that could work here, but this looks reasonable.

[hicherbie]

ok...so BB should have bet out on the flop but went for the cr instead. so im guessing he did have the fd with an over?

[IMTheWalrus8]

[ QUOTE ]
10-handed, serious game. Folded to me in MP3, and I raise. Chris DaddyCool coldcalls in the CO. Button folds. SB folds. BB (BigdaddyDVO) calls.

Flop is J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif. BB checks. I check. CDC checks.

Turn is the Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. BB bets. I raise. CDC 3-bets. BB caps. I fold. CDC folds.

What do I have? What does CDC have? What does BB have? What do you think of our play?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea how you guys play but I'll give it a shot:

You have KQo, no diamonds
CO has AQs, no diamonds
BB has 2 middle diamonds

At first I wanted to say the CO has a pocket pair b/c of the preflop coldcall, but that doesn't explain the turn 3-bet.

If this is the hand, I don't like the BB check on the flop, though if he has a read that you normally raise the flop when you're the pf raiser, and he is playing for a check-raise, it makes sense. The reraise from MP3 with KQo I'm not so sure about, but you sure got a lot of information after that bet.

[cold_cash]

This is a tough one.

I've been over the hand a couple times and everytime I think I have a good guess I notice something else and think, "No, he would'nt have done this with that".

With that in mind, I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say you and DonkDaddy both folded the same hand, QK no /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. (I'm not too confident with this guess about Chris' hand because I doubt he would cold-call with it, suited or not, but it's all I got.)

The BB could have a few hands I suppose. A flush is possible, or a flopped set that missed a flop check-raise.

[Entity]

CDC had AQo, no diamonds.
I had AQo, no diamonds.
BB had 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

I think, in the long run, BB stands to make more by not capping the turn, but it's a weird situation, probably pretty tough to be in, and I don't think it makes a huge difference. Since there is a relatively high likelihood of Chris or I holding AQo with the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, capping probably isn't all that bad, but in this instance it cost him 2BB. I think it probably costs him around .2BB in the end, assuming neither Chris or I fold on a river blank, which we won't the majority of the time.

I think Chris would have been better suited 3-betting this hand preflop, since my hand range has suitably increased at this point to include a lot of hands he's dominating.

I'm really surprised at anyone who thought I could have AK or TT here. That makes absolutely no sense.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

Turn went: BB bet, Entity raises to shut out CDC, CDC 3 bets because he knows Entity is trying to shut him out, BB caps, Entity thinks "oh crap they both aint lying and I got little to nothing" and folds, and CDC thinks "I have a weak made hand with little to no redraws to what BB is representing" and folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty close, except the part about me having "little to nothing."

Rob

[Shillx]

CDC had AQo, no diamonds.

This is lame. I really dislike the preflop coldcall. He let the BB in cheap and got burned. This assumes that everyone is playing serious and that the BB would have folded for 2 more with 43 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Brad

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
Chris DaddyCool coldcalls in the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

With AQo?

Terrible, terrible coldcall. Gap concept aside, this is an easy 3-bet preflop, and it totally screwed with my read, dammit!

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I really dislike the preflop coldcall.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like it, but I don't hate it. I prefer a 3-bet. It depends on what range BB will call one with that he'll fold for two, and how he'll play postflop in these situations.

Rob

[toss]

CDC played this hand really weird, but I'm sure it'll be proven he played it to perfection. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[VBM]

hey rob,

did CDC say what hands he put you & BB on w/ the turn 3-bet? maybe you on KQs, but not /images/graemlins/diamond.gif?

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Chris DaddyCool coldcalls in the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

With AQo?

Terrible, terrible coldcall. Gap concept aside, this is an easy 3-bet preflop, and it totally screwed with my read, dammit!

[/ QUOTE ]

Even good players make mistakes.

[SteveL91]

I'm curious about your thought process on the flop. That's a flop I'd bet 3-handed nearly everytime. I'm just wondering why you chose to check it? Mostly, I'm trying to fine-tune my play with UI overcards; I think I'm too deeply entrenched in betting the flop after I raise PF when it's a small field. The only thing I can come up with is maybe you thought CDC was floating with a big pair?

Thanks,
Steve

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
Even good players make mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but a player of CDC's caliber should only be making mistakes postflop. He ought to know preflop play by now, given his expertise in small stakes forum.

Whatever, I'll stop babbling. He obviously have some inert reasoning behind his coldcall. Maybe he was just planning to float Entity like a mofo.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even good players make mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but a player of CDC's caliber should only be making mistakes postflop. He ought to know preflop play by now, given his expertise in small stakes forum.

Whatever, I'll stop babbling. He obviously have some inert reasoning behind his coldcall. Maybe he was just planning to float Entity like a mofo.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a couple of reasons for coldcalling vs. 3-betting that I've been discussing with Chris. A 3-bet is still better, but it isn't a tragic mistake like many of you are making it out to be.

A) Chris gets himself a lot more free cards when he coldcalls preflop, since I don't have any information about his hand here. I'm not just blindly betting into a good player with AT or AQ or even AK on this flop. That means, by coldcalling with AQo, he can also coldcall with somewhat weaker hands and get a less expensive look at the turn.

B) Chris may earn himself a lot more money when an Ace flops. What's my line against Chris when he 3-bets preflop after I raise A8s, and an Ace flops? Now, contrast that with when he coldcalls? He's usually getting over 1BB worth of action more from me in those instances, because if it goes bet-call, bet-raise-??, I'm in a tough position but still have a tough time finding a fold against a tricky coldcaller.

I do agree that 3-betting is better given the fact that 3-betting increases bluffing equity, but there are certain advantages to coldcalling that it seems none of you are even considering before you say "I hate it."

Rob

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm really surprised at anyone who thought I could have AK or TT here. That makes absolutely no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't terribly happy with my guess, but I got tired of trying to narrow down the hands, so I submitted with the last iteration of what I had been guessing.

I was trying to find something that:
1. You'd raise after it was folded to you, especially with tight players after you. I think that's a lot of playable hands. Pairs down to 88, perhaps... a lot of suited hands.
2. But you must have a pair of something in order to raise it on the turn.
3. You had no diamonds, because you folded.
4. I expected something that is probably dominated by the board, but because it was checked through on the flop you thought some aggression would pay off. It had to be high enough for you to expect to win, but low enough to be dominated by the board, IMO.
5. I didn't think you'd let TPTK get checked through on the flop.

It isn't quite as illogical as you make it out, though, I don't think.

KO

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Pairs down to 88

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm raising down to 55 here, and a lot of other stuff. My handrange openraising in MP3 is very very high against tightish other players. My goal is to get to play HU against one of the blinds, because then I've got position, and most likely a better hand.

Rob

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pairs down to 88

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm raising down to 55 here, and a lot of other stuff. My handrange openraising in MP3 is very very high against tightish other players. My goal is to get to play HU against one of the blinds, because then I've got position, and most likely a better hand.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually had 66 in there and changed it to 88, heh... thinking I'd rather predict too tight than too loose.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

KO

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

5. I didn't think you'd let TPTK get checked through on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't have TPTK on the flop. I'm betting any pocket pair on this flop and treading carefully if checkraised/called and my PP is an underpair, but I'm not letting any vulnerable hands (like 99 or TT) get checked through.

I'm not raising the turn with no pair.

That leaves basically KQ and AQ for my hand range. :P Chris is a bit more difficult to pin since he didn't 3-bet preflop, but those guessing KQ were pretty damned close.

Rob

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

5. I didn't think you'd let TPTK get checked through on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't have TPTK on the flop. I'm betting any pocket pair on this flop and treading carefully if checkraised/called and my PP is an underpair, but I'm not letting any vulnerable hands (like 99 or TT) get checked through.

I'm not raising the turn with no pair.

That leaves basically KQ and AQ for my hand range. :P Chris is a bit more difficult to pin since he didn't 3-bet preflop, but those guessing KQ were pretty damned close.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops... /images/graemlins/blush.gif

KO

[hicherbie]

thanks for this HH/exercise. hope we get to see more of these as i obviously need the practice.

[DeathDonkey]

Hi Ent,

[ QUOTE ]
Chris gets himself a lot more free cards when he coldcalls preflop, since I don't have any information about his hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree here. When a pretty good player makes a coldcall like this, AQ is one of the first hands I put him on. It's pretty much an AQ, AJs, KQs type of hand or a mid pocket pair every time I see it live, they just can't help themselves but they know they don't have enough to 3 bet.

I just about never coldcall first in after the raiser and I can't think of a spot where I would start. I probably 3 bet too much in those spots but I hate hate hate not knowing where I'm at on those in between type of flops and I find position + preflop 3 bet really simplifies my life. Plus I get to keep 3 betting my monsters and getting paid off by like AK high after I show down an unimproved AQo or something.

-DeathDonkey

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Ent,

[ QUOTE ]
Chris gets himself a lot more free cards when he coldcalls preflop, since I don't have any information about his hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree here. When a pretty good player makes a coldcall like this, AQ is one of the first hands I put him on. It's pretty much an AQ, AJs, KQs type of hand or a mid pocket pair every time I see it live, they just can't help themselves but they know they don't have enough to 3 bet.

I just about never coldcall first in after the raiser and I can't think of a spot where I would start. I probably 3 bet too much in those spots but I hate hate hate not knowing where I'm at on those in between type of flops and I find position + preflop 3 bet really simplifies my life. Plus I get to keep 3 betting my monsters and getting paid off by like AK high after I show down an unimproved AQo or something.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey DD,

I think you should either 3-bet more often, or less often. Coldcalling with AQ is something that Chris can get away with if he'll also occasionally do it with AA, AK, KK, etc. I don't know if he will, but I do know that I'm not leading with overcards against someone whose hand range is something like KJs, KQs, KQ, AQ, AK, and mid-pocket pairs on a J-high flop. I do think that if he's 3-betting with big hands, then coldcalling with AQ isn't a great play, but I don't think the play in and of itself is bad. Also, I'm not sure what part of my statement you're disagreeing with, unless you're telling me that you're betting into someone here whose handrange is 22-AA, AK, AQ, KQ, KJs.

I do think that 3-betting is better than coldcalling, but I'm just pointing out that there are some advantages to coldcalling.

Rob

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what part of my statement you're disagreeing with, unless you're telling me that you're betting into someone here whose handrange is 22-AA, AK, AQ, KQ, KJs.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was disagreeing with him getting more freecards by coldcalling. Basically if I were in your shoes and he coldcalls behind me I'm thinking "great I am firing away on the flop and turn on an ugly enough board and if he has a mid pocket pair he will surely let me know about it". Now before you say it I realize he is good enough that he will quickly exploit my thought process there, but I still don't see how that is better than him just 3 betting me and whacking me over the head every time I try to steal the blinds.

The other thing I was disagreeing with was the idea that he needs freecards in these situations. The problem I have there is if we are calling getting a free card on the flop a benefit of the preflop coldcall, then we are saying he is likely taking one off on the flop, hoping to catch something, instead of having a hand to begin with. I guess what I'm trying to say is he shouldn't be playing a hand in this situation that wants or needs a free card, and since I think he shouldn't want or need a free card, then I don't see why he shouldn't 3 bet preflop.

Ok I'm just going in circles now, maybe that made sense and maybe not. The summary is I don't like coldcalling but maybe I will eventually find out why its so popular in position by good players who I would expect to see 3 betting.

-DeathDonkey