10/20 hand on party

[Prevaricator]

I'm a little out of practice for full games, and this spot kind of bothered me. I haven't seen any of these players in this hand before. None of them are maniacs though, both seem pretty tight.

I'm in MP with red queens. UTG limps, one EP player makes it 100, and it folds to me. I call, UTG calls.

Flop is 865, 2 diamonds. UTG checks, PFR bets 250 into the 310 pot. I call, UTG folds.

Turn is the Jd. PFR checks to me. I bet 525.

My thoughts are that I can't let Ad or Kd draw for cheap, I dont know if he would check JJ there (the fact that is a jack makes the situation more complicated), if he has AA or KK then I can check behind on the river if he calls. If I check here and he bets big on the river I've got trouble since there is nothing I can beat except a bluff. However the way I am playing the hand, I am ahead of no made hands, only draws.

[Yeti]

Pretty standard.

[captZEEbo1]

If the last diamond drops on river, are you value betting?

[Prevaricator]

no because he doesnt have the Td.

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
no because he doesnt have the Td.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it standard to only value bet nuts on river? Aren't a lot of people not folding AA to a 1/3 pot (or so) bet on river thinking it's a desperation bluff by a worse pair knowing it's beaten? (This is a legitimate question I have, that I don't know the answer; I'm not saying you are in error)

[Prevaricator]

I don't have a read. 1/3 of the pot on the river will not be that small of a bet either, and he could hceck KKd

[AZK]

How much are you planning to be on the river if it is a total brick? You both start with 2k?

[Prevaricator]

What is he calling me with on the river that I beat?

or are you suggesting I try to push him off of AA KK?

Yeah, 2k stacks

[AZK]

Yes, I was getting at that the only way you are winning this pot is by bluffing, so how much are you betting on the river to represent the set/flush/whatever

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I was getting at that the only way you are winning this pot is by bluffing, so how much are you betting on the river to represent the set/flush/whatever

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are we in this pot if the only way we are winning this pot is by bluffing? Shouldn't we be folding flop or checking turn? Or are you saying that if he bets on turn AND gets called, the only way you are winning is to bluff?

I thought generally, a losing proposition was to try and bluff out AA or KK overpairs.

[Prevaricator]

If he calls the turn, is he really going to fold the river?

I'd have to go all in for about 1k which is less than the size of the pot. Maybe if I had some sort of read, but against an unknown I don't know if that is wise.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are we in this pot if the only way we are winning this pot is by bluffing? Shouldn't we be folding flop or checking turn? Or are you saying that if he bets on turn AND gets called, the only way you are winning is to bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

We were in this pot to hit a set, we missed, there is a lot of money in the center and it's a scary board. Why are you betting the turn in the first place if you aren't planning on bluffing on the end? The better teh player the easier it is to make him laydown an overpair, this looks like a great board to do it.

Prev: Why'd you bet the turn if you don't think he'll lay down?

[chuddo]

i bet less on the turn when checked to, say 400. fold if check-raised, but that is probably never coming.

on the river (diamond or not) i check behind, and wonder which way the chippies will go.

[Prevaricator]

Cause its better than checking behind and calling a bet on the river? Can i check behind and fold the river?

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a little out of practice for full games, and this spot kind of bothered me. I haven't seen any of these players in this hand before. None of them are maniacs though, both seem pretty tight.

I'm in MP with red queens. UTG limps, one EP player makes it 100, and it folds to me. I call, UTG calls.

Flop is 865, 2 diamonds. UTG checks, PFR bets 250 into the 310 pot. I call, UTG folds.

Turn is the Jd. PFR checks to me. I bet 525.

My thoughts are that I can't let Ad or Kd draw for cheap, I dont know if he would check JJ there (the fact that is a jack makes the situation more complicated), if he has AA or KK then I can check behind on the river if he calls. If I check here and he bets big on the river I've got trouble since there is nothing I can beat except a bluff. However the way I am playing the hand, I am ahead of no made hands, only draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your line if you think he could fire big with air on the flop, if he's real tight that's not necessarily the case. Still, once you commit to the hand by calling the flop, you've gotta go with the read and fire once he checks the turn.

I think the most likely holding for him is KK/AA no diamond.

[Prevaricator]

If he's real tight, fold the flop?

[fsuplayer]

I like the way you played this hand.

and i check behind the river, or fold to a bet more than 1/3 pot probably.

[BluffTHIS!]

Apparently I am the only who would advocate the following but here goes. QQ is a better hand than some medium pocket pair where you just hope to flop a set, but it is in danger of possibly losing a lot of money to AA/KK if you are not careful. I would reraise preflop to 300 to get rid of the hitchikers behind me and get the button. Early position players raise 5x the blinds all the time with 99-JJ/AK/AQs and even AJs. I want to charge those hands to see the flop. If I am reraised big then I am folding unless against someone I know habitually will go allin with AKo. Very few (good) players will or should just smoothcall you here with AA and especially KK since they will be out of position. When you raise like this and effectively gain the button if you are not reraised, playing a rag board becomes a lot easier since if you are checkraised you can get away fearing that he does in fact have AA/KK or a medium set. Plus if checked to with that type of board you can bet with more confidence and not give a free card to AK. And of course, if an A or K falls on the flop I am not calling or betting his hand if checked to me. I want to know where I am at and have position with QQ and reraising here against all but the very tightest players accomplishes this with less risk in my opinion. If you just smoothcall and then call a standard continuation bet by AK or JJ on the flop, you will be getting more money in the pot with the best hand, but you are also effectively giving a cheaper turn and probably river card (if you check behind after calling on the flop) for AK to spike a card to beat you. I like taking free cards when it will benefit me but I sure don't like giving free or cheap cards.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
If he's real tight, fold the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

You would need to know this guy very, very well before you did that. I can think of exactly two of my regular opponents who I would fold the flop to.