Canterbury: Who played this hand the worst?

[any2cards]

Canterbury bi-weekly no-limit Texas Holdem tournament. $200+$25, T4,000 to start, blinds T25-T50, 30 minute levels. I am a regular, winning tournament player. Very familiar with all of the regular players.

The following hand occurs in Level 2, blinds T50-T100. I have not had a playable since we started, including blinds. Therefore, I have not yet played a hand for the first 45 minutes.

I have had a bad draw to my table, as it is filled with 5 strong tournament players.

All fold to the cutoff (CO) who makes it T300 to go (T5200 left). He is a tight, aggressive thinking player (one of the 5 mentioned above).

I am on the button and look down to see K /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I have ~T3700. I make it T1000 to go.

The small blind folds. The big blind (BB) thinks a few seconds, and pushes all-in for T4100. This player is fairly tight, but has not particularily played well the hands he has played. Not sure if he even has recognized the tight players that have already raised, nor if he noticed that between us we have played about 3 hands.

The CO thinks for a moment or two, and now also pushes all-in.

I am covered by both. I think for a few minutes (literally), and decide to fold my hand face up. This obviously causes much consternation amongst some of the younger wannabes, watchers, other players, the dealer, my mother /images/graemlins/smirk.gif, etc.

The BB turns over J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif. The CO turns over Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Obviously I am not too happy. At the next break, a bunch of us (including some of the players involved), discuss the hand.

It was tough for me to decide who played this hand worst.

The BB is faced with two strong, thinking, tight players raising, and somehow goes all-in with Jacks. The CO is now faced with a strong player to his left having reraised him (and he would notice that I haven't played a hand yet), and a BB having gone all-in. In addition, he has no idea what I am going to do after him if he calls. He has to wonder if he is beat by Kings or Aces. Nevertheless he calls.

I decide that one of the two have to have Aces and fold.

Who played this hand worst?

PS. By the way, the flop came up QT9 rainbow, followed by running 3's. What a great fold /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Bump: Because this is actually a post about poker.

[11t]

Who played this hand worst in order from worst to best.
1. JJ
2. QQ
3. KK

[betgo]

JJ should definately fold to a raise and reraise. QQ should fold to a reraise and an allin. KK should probably call with two players allin, particularly since you were getting some pot odds having already reraised.

So you all played it wrong.

If these are the strong players, it sounds like an easy tournament.

If you are going to fold here, I would just muck the cards face down.

[durron597]

I think your only mistake was folding the KK face up. If the CO is good and the BB is tight then the CO has AA, QQ (ignore the other KK), and the BB has AK/AA/QQ/JJ (if you're lucky). But I think folding face up encourages people to try to bully you around later.

[Dan Rutter]

Is there any possiblity that you and the original PRF's late position played a role in the outcome of this hand? If the original PFR is raising from the cutoff, his range of hands should be lower in strength. Your reraise from the button PF may be with a hand of lower strength then normal standards for a re-raise as well. If the BB feels you both are raising with not the strongest of hands, he may be pushing with JJ and feel he has the best of it. The CO may feel that you were just restealing, and the BB may have something not as strong as normal either, and that QQ is the best hand. I realize both you and the original PFR had tighter images, but even tight players loosen up around the button. But, if the BB did not rationalize any of that information, then he played the worst.

[any2cards]

I don't agree with your comments about "pot odds" and KK should definitely call. I don't think this is an "obvious" decision, much like your comment indicates. This is not a ring game that I can rebuy into. If I decide wrong here, it costs me my entire stack, and I am out.

I think this decision is very close. And it is only close because I did not really know how the BB played. Once, however, the tight player to my right calls a re-raiser (me) and an all-in (the BB), it made me lean towards folding, rather than calling.

If we look at this strickly from a pot odds perspective, the BB has T4100 in, the CO has T4100 in (the portion that I can win), I have T1000 in, and now must call T2700 into a pot with T9200. I am getting approximately 3.4-1 on my money. In this situation, I am either way ahead, or way behind (if one has AA). I am a 4-1 dog if someone has AA, and I am only a 2-1 against two people if they have hands like they did (QQ, JJ). It is worse if one of them actually has at least 1 A in their hand. Given the nature of the hand, and the players involved, I made the decision that I was way behind, and chose to let the hand go.

I virtually never show my hands if I fold or lose at show down. I chose to do so here to see if it would buy me opportunities later in the tournament.

[betgo]

The fact that this is late position action is more reason to call with KK. With pot odds and everything, I think this is a call.

I think you have to fold JJ with that much action in front of you, regardless of position.

The call with QQ may be somewhat borderline.

[any2cards]

As I stated previously, I virtually never show my hands if I fold or lose at show down. I chose to do so here to see if it would buy me opportunities later in the tournament.

Given the make up of the table (5 fairly tight players), I believe by showing the fold of KK, it would allow me to buy additional pots later on when I did raise and/or re-raise others.

I still think this is accurate thinking, but I am interested in knowing if others believe as you do that I would give up more than I would gain.

[Edge34]

1) Its Canterbury.
2) Its a tournament that isn't a Fall Classic event or some such.
3) You have KK and people are giving you action.

In that situation, I probably would have called, even though I would have convinced myself that one of the two had AA. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif That being said, your play wasn't really bad at all...the worst hand playing, to answer your question, was JJ.

But that type of thing is why I would have called - the chance, small as it may be, that I actually was dominating both players.

[any2cards]

You make a valid point. I simply didn't know enough about the BB to allow myself to credit the BB with this level of depth in thinking.

There are plenty of people at Canterbury who play in these tournaments that can barely decide what they have, let alone think to these levels.

While I realize that standards in general will loosen up as your opportunity to open raise/steal from late position increases the closer to the button you are, I still tend to give much credit to someone who re-raises, even if on the button.

In other words, if the CO open raises, and the button re-raises, I have found that the second raiser, despite his position and given the situation, still tends to have a fairly strong to very strong hand, as he/she is re-opening the betting, providing the original raiser with the option of going all-in.

I would have suspected what you are talking about, and been much more likely to call with my KK if the button had just smooth called the CO's raise, rather than re-raising.