Flopped the nuts, but do I have to give em up?

[Black Aces 518]

Home game, .25/.50 blinds, $25 buyin. Pretty soft game, a couple of LAGs, couple of LPs, and a couple of good players. Playing 8 handed.

I raise to $2.50 UTG with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif10 /images/graemlins/club.gif. I know in many games this just gets me against the hands that have me beat, but not here. I get 4 callers (UTG+1 - LAG who will make moves like checkraise allin with A4 vs preflop raiser on A hi board; MP - LP wife of another LAG; Button - LP donk girl who will call pot bets with A hi and chase anything; BB - my brother, pretty solid player).

Flop comes K /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif ($12.75 in pot)

I lead out $4. I figure I may get raised by KQ, QJ, JK, etc., and it looks fishy for me to check this kind of board after a UTG raise (not that at least 2, maybe 3 of the opps would think about it). Everyone calls.

Turn is 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif (K /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif, $32.75 in pot)

I bet $8. Should this have been bigger? I don't like the 2 clubs, but not that concerned with it. Everyone but Button calls.

River is 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif (5 /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif $64.75 in pot)

Damn. I was thinking no board pair no club. My brother leads for $5, I call (should I raise?). LAG to my left pushes for $29.75 total, folds to my brother who calls. It is now $24.75 to me, with 104.50 in the pot. I feel like I have two options. Call and pay the club flush, or fold, watch 10-10 take down KQ and kill myself.

The LAG could have the clubs, any two pair, AA, any 10, any set, A10. Like I said he will push with not much and will slowplay then pull the trigger what would seem to be too late. He's a guy who is known to limp with AA, call on the flop and turn no matter what then push the river. If he were the only one I would instacall.

My brother is tight and I think KK and QQ and AA are not possible for him. Either would have reraised, 95% of the time preflop (probably higher, given 5 person pot), and if not, on the flop. He IMO either has 10-10, A10, tiny chance of JJ or the flush. I read him when he made the call to be confident but cautious. He certainly does not have the A hi flush.

Thoughts?

[jkkkk]

check raise or raise more on the flop, raise more on the turn, fold the river, you've made it too cheap and its pretty likely one of them has the clubs.

[amoeba]

straights are very prone to being outdrawn.

after everybody called the turn, there are lots of cards you don't want to see.

an A or T kills your action and very likely splits your pot, you don't want to see board paired, with this many people, club draw is more likely and even if nobody has it, it still kills your action.

I would have bet the flop for slightly more say $7. on the turn I overbet the pot if I have everybody call. I might even push the turn.

[elus2]

bet pot on flop. bet 2/3 on the turn and that would put you close to all in with the nuts no? on the flop, the board has 3 broadway cards, if an ace, ten or nine falls then your action is killed. if the board pairs then you're f'd. on the turn same as above but now you have to worry about someone on a club draw. the point is you have the nuts that is very vulnerable to getting outdrawn. bet enough to extract as much value as possible while you can.

[phil_ivey_fan]

pay it off. Don't be scared of your brother. Who leads the river for $5 into a 65$ pot with a flush? Seriously?

So now that your brother is throwing dead money in the pot when he calls the all-in, you are getting good enough odds to call (4-1 against a LAG!!!). If you pay off the flush, so be it. Reload, and remember to bet harder on the flop and turn. I think you are ahead and about to drag this pot.

If you fold, I'm going to punch myself in the nuts.

[wdeadwyler]

I really can't call here. Someone could have easily hit a pair plus backdoor, and then gotten priced in til the river. If I had bet more at any point, this is an instacall. As for leading 5 into this river of 65, how can anything BUT a flush do that?

[wtfsvi]

Seriously. Your turn bet is so weak!

[MLerra]

You're playing a few loose players, and the flop is so good for you it's ridiculous. Not only do you have the nuts, there's a good chance someone has top pair, two-pair, or one-card straight draw. I don't see how you're betting so small on the flop and turn; if you bet bigger, you wouldn't have to worry about what to do on the river, because you'd have given everyone such bad odds to draw out on you... and you might be all-in by that point anyways, if all goes well.

[phil_ivey_fan]

[ QUOTE ]
As for leading 5 into this river of 65, how can anything BUT a flush do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any Ten (KT,QT,JT,AT)...

the pot is 65 on the river, 5 from brother, 5 from Hero, 30 from villain... now its 105. Ok, so the math doesn't add up here... this means that brother was allin w/ his $5 lead. So that widens his range of hands even more...

So, yes, MANY MANY other hands push in for 5 more dollars on the river.

[Black Aces 518]

I'm seeing that my turn bet in particular was weak.

A partial (but by no means complete) defense is that this is a home game, and a certain economy develops around home games and betting. In a game where $25 is the buyin, 2/3 of the pots are raised to $3 or so preflop with 3-4 callers, and most people are not gonna buyin more than $50 total, making pot and 2/3 pot bets on the flop and turn is not standard.

And the pot was $64.75 going into the river, not after the betting. There's 104.75 in it when it's to me. My brother was not all-in, he had maybe $20 behind, and I have about $35, pending my call.

Still it was weak, and the above explanation only partially complements the greed that drove the decision-making to this point.

[phil_ivey_fan]

[ QUOTE ]
And the pot was $64.75 going into the river, not after the betting. There's 104.75 in it when it's to me. My brother was not all-in, he had maybe $20 behind, and I have about $35, pending my call.

[/ QUOTE ]

River is 9 (5 K Q J $64.75 in pot)

(65+5=70) -- My brother leads for $5
(70+5=75) -- I call (should I raise?).
(75+30=105) -- LAG to my left pushes for $29.75 total
(105+25=130) -- brother who calls.

It is now $24.75 to me, with 104.50 in the pot.

???????????? I'm confused ?????????????

[sourbeaver]

You have flopped a nice hand, but it's vulnerable.
Any A or T means you might have split this beauty. And any J, Q or K means that the hands you're hoping to get a call from are now owning you. So you definitely need to lead out for more on the flop. Closer to 10-12. You don't need them to raise, if they've got 2-pair, they're calling (or better yet, they're raising your 10-12$ flop bet, then you come over the top).

Same thing on the turn, except now it's not merely "too little", it's just plain horrible. Now, there's a boat load of cards that hurt you. You have to pot it (which is probably a push, considering the buy-in).

See how much easier the river is ?
You don't care if they draw out on you because you got your stack in the middle while you were strongly ahead. And you avoided a difficult situation on the river which, by all means, you should never be faced with in that spot.

[webmonarch]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet $8. Should this have been bigger?

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I push on the turn. Win the hand. If someone wants to chase a board pair or a flush, make em' pay.

[Black Aces 518]

ivey_fan, sorry you are right. I kept forgetting to add my brother's $$ into the pot. I am moron. Man online makes things easier, heh.

[Black Aces 518]

Nice post beaver. I clearly should have pushed the turn. I see this now, because this was a horrid spot to be in on the river.

This hand also serves as an important reminder of the benefit/detriment that position does play. Everyone knows this, but sometimes reminders help, and I won't soon forget the lesson. If I had the benefit of seeing everyone act, my decisions on bet size would have been easier, and hopefully not as poor.

For closure, ivey, don't punch yourself. I make the disgusted call, LAG tables Qc7c and my brother has Kc2c. Ha. A dumdum is me. Push on the turn, lag calls and I lose anyway, but I desperately want him to call, even though he would have gotten lucky this time. My brother would have gone away.

Thanks to all for the advice/criticism. I needed it.

[swolfe]

he's probably got a T and thinks he's winning. if you had bet more on earlier streets, then you wouldn't have any tough decision here.

pot the flop, 2/3rd the turn, 1/2 the river