A hand I played poorly

[Bodhi]

I'm currently clearing the Noble Poker bonus and so I have no current hand histories. However, instead of criticizing you all I thought I'd go through some of my own hands for the horror show.

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

The SB is TAG, the BB is LAG preflop, passive postflop, and MP1 is wharfy. I checked my notes on PT but I unfortunately slacked on taking down more details.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

<font color="blue">Here again we see the ubiquitous failure to raise with overcards and a gutshot straightflush draw. I suppose I reasoned that because the players at absolute are tighter "than a nuns nasty" I would make more money by not raising. As it turned out this was a perfect opportunity to 3-bet and the hand would've played out better for me.</font>

Turn: (8.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

<font color="blue">still passive because now I feared trips</font>

River: (11.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

<font color="blue">crying call</font>

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

[irishpint]

like u said u have a bunch of outs on the flop so i raise and see how it plays. next time i guess.

[@bsolute_luck]

"wharfy"- hahah! what the heck is that?!
[ QUOTE ]
As it turned out this was a perfect opportunity to 3-bet and the hand would've played out better for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

you said what i thought. probably fold the river too against a TAG. you only beat 88 here and i really don't see a TAG 3-betting a pair of 8s on the flop.

[Bodhi]

Yeah, I suppose my only question is whether the paired board should stop the hero from capping the flop.

[irishpint]

i would have 3 bet the first time i mean. you have outs that'll destroy 3 of a kind, i believe.

[moot]

Fold the river PLEASE.

SB 3 bet this flop (he likely has trips). BB raised preflop (meaning often times he's likely to have AK or AA-JJ, all of which beat you). With both of them seeing this on the end I don't think there's any chance you're good enough times to make this +EV.

Also, since this player raised preflop out of the BB his chances of having a premium hand are even stronger (since many players wuss out with lesser hands and take a "free flop").

Additionally, since I'm definitely staying in this hand I like 3 betting the flop to maximize my position and hopefully take control of the hand. I also think it plays a lot easier, too.

FOLD THE RIVER!

[FlyingStart]

Is it not possible that SB is holding a single 9?

I'm more curious of what BB has tho, a nine is not likely since he raised before the flop, chasing overcards maybe? But it's strange that he calls the river. Maybe pocket pair

[bighomage]

[ QUOTE ]
FOLD THE RIVER!

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it not possible that SB is holding a single 9?

I'm more curious of what BB has tho, a nine is not likely since he raised before the flop, chasing overcards maybe? But it's strange that he calls the river. Maybe pocket pair

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, this is exactly how a tag would play a 9 (or a 7 for that matter). I think BB raised here to try and get a cheap showdown and to knock some players out on the flop. When he just calls I think he has something like AQ/AJ or is going for an overcall with something like AK/KQ and afraid of raising trips.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the river PLEASE. SB 3 bet this flop (he likely has trips).

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a tag and it's more likely has a pocket pair or a 9.

[ QUOTE ]
BB raised preflop (meaning often times he's likely to have AK or AA-JJ, all of which beat you).

[/ QUOTE ]

"the BB is LAG preflop, passive postflop"

[ QUOTE ]
With both of them seeing this on the end I don't think there's any chance you're good enough times to make this +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

You only need to be good ~10% of the time. I could see BB with something like AJ/AQ here calling in case sb was bluffing and sb playing this way with a 9 at least that often.

[kiemo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FOLD THE RIVER!

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[/ QUOTE ]

YES!

Or maybe you can give us some reasoning behind your one word reply.


I can certainly see making a crying call on the river since the pot is so large, but once BB calls I dont think your mid pair is going to hold up any % of time to make the call profitable.


BB most likely has high pockets or the rivered pair. Questionable whether SB will try to bluff his busted flush or straight draw, however I could easily see him play A7s or T8s outta the SB.

[Fantam]

I agree that I think you should have capped the flop. But I think that would have been a value bet for if you made your flush or straight draw.

I dont think that either of the remaining players would have folded to a flop cap if they had trips or a straight or flush draw themselves, and I expect that the rest of the hand would have played out the same way that it did.

[moot]

Oh come on guys. You're really think we're good enough times? I know we only have to be good less than 10% of the time. Problem is, we're not good nearly enough. And please don't just reply with stupid one word answers. Look at the facts:

SB is a TAG meaning he's not stupid so I don't think he's gonna go crazy with only a 9.

BB is passive postflop, meaning he's probably not raising with less than an overpair. Then when he gets reraised he slows down because he's afraid he's losing to trips.

Even is BB is a LAG preflop the range of hands he could have by the end that we actually beat is very small. Maybe AQ, though since he's passive postflop he's more likely to have an overpair than two high cards (since he raised the flop) (and even if he raised with AK, that beats us now). Also, even dumb players will often let their ace high go on the end after that much aggression, so it's probably more likely he has an overpair. Additionally, since players are more timid about raising from the blinds, it's more likely he has an overpair.

The SB bet out, and that could mean anything. When he 3 bets it narrows it down A LOT. Maybe he's being aggressive with a draw but most likely he has trips. With only a draw and 2 players still in he probably would have slowed down a lot earlier. If he's a TAG I don't think he'd be this crazy with only a 9. I think his most likely hand is trips.

The SB has bet the whole way. If the BB bailed maybe you could call, hoping the SB went crazy with a draw or only a 9. Or, if the SB checked, and the BB bet, maybe you could call, figuring the SB missed his draw or had only a 9 and the BB might be betting his high cards.


But when the SB bets after 3 betting preflop and leading the turn and the BB calls after raising PREFLOP and FLOP, how on earth do we justify a call here? Please explain that to me.

If my hand had improved to 2 pair on the river, or one of them bailed, then I start to consider a crying call. Here I think it's a waste of a big bet. FOLD.

EDIT ==

I should add that in the heat of the match I'm not perfect either, and with only a limited time to think or simply for my own mental stability I might call. But I think the reason people post these hands is to discuss them in terms of +EV play, and I think in the long run folding is better move (unless it causes us deep mental distress, which it might, so maybe we can call).

Like I said, I'm not gonna burn you at the stake for calling this river. I might do it, too. But I think folding is the correct play.

[deception5]

This is a pretty interesting hand in my opinion.

Thing is I do see a tag 3-betting a 9 here and I imagine this being the thought process.

Flop: Paired board, unlikely someone has a 7. Preflop raiser will often raise here with an ace (maybe to buy the button and draw to a free showdown and maybe because he doesn't believe the sb hit this paired board and that Ax is still the best hand) so the 3-bet essentially could be saying "I think my 9's are still the best hand" and everyone calling reinforces that. Especially if he has a similar read of the bb.

Turn &amp; River: While it's possible these hit someone it's still possible the tag has the best hand and is betting for value (particularly on the turn). The river could be a bet/fold line.

This seems particularly likely for a hand like A9.

I agree that the fact that it's already been called by the bb is bad and this may reduce our chance of winning below 10% but I would still have a hard time folding here with second pair closing the action.

[bighomage]

Judging by SB's image, we probably have him beat. Not necessarily, but probably. BB probably has a higher pocket pair, but there's a very reasonable chance that he does not. Donks will repeatedly play hands like AJ and AQ this way, and considering he's loose and aggressive preflop, he could also be holding a smaller pocket pair like 88 or 66. We only need to be right about 7% of the time. It is close, but a fold in pots this big against low caliber players is incorrect.

[Bodhi]

This is the best analysis of the villain's holdings by far. I wasn't going to tell you all but everything's been said by moot. Villain had a 7.