Oh Pokerstars, why has thou forsaken me?

[miketurner]

Ok. While this is not by any means a bad beat (she had the nuts on the flop)... pokerstars has really been beating me up lately. On the flop, I am completely giving up on this hand. They gave me a free card and there are only 2 cards in the deck that can cost me this pot. Of coarse, I hit one of them on the turn... giving me a full house. Sure, there is a chance that her betting pattern indicates that she has me beat... but it is a much greater chance that she has a lone ace or a small or middle pocket pair, or even a queen or a jack. This, combined with her small stack, commits me to the pot. Is there anyone here who gets away from this hand? Is there something to be learned here?

PokerStars Game #1817662021: Tournament #8555507, Hold'em No Limit - Level I
(10/20) - 2005/06/02 - 14:02:41 (ET)
Table '8555507 3' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: d333grumpy (1615 in chips)
Seat 2: 66BIGSLICK66 (1410 in chips)
Seat 3: mike's music (1450 in chips) ----me
Seat 4: BigGun007 (2700 in chips)
Seat 5: slickjoka (1180 in chips)
Seat 6: cabinetman45 (1310 in chips)
Seat 7: hcfd (1670 in chips)
Seat 8: eddyz33 (1615 in chips)
Seat 9: Brenz (550 in chips)
hcfd: posts small blind 10
eddyz33: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mike's music [3c 3s]
Brenz: calls 20
d333grumpy: calls 20
66BIGSLICK66: folds
mike's music: calls 20
BigGun007 has timed out
BigGun007: folds
BigGun007 is sitting out
slickjoka: folds
cabinetman45: calls 20
hcfd: calls 10
eddyz33: checks
*** FLOP *** [Qh Qs Jc]
hcfd: checks
eddyz33: checks
Brenz: checks
d333grumpy: checks
mike's music: checks
cabinetman45: checks
*** TURN *** [Qh Qs Jc] [3h]
BigGun007 has returned
hcfd: checks eddyz33: checks
Brenz: checks
d333grumpy: checks
mike's music: bets 20
cabinetman45: calls 20
hcfd: folds
eddyz33: calls 20
Brenz: raises 20 to 40
d333grumpy: folds
mike's music: raises 80 to 120
cabinetman45: folds
eddyz33: folds Brenz: raises 410 to 530 and is all-in
mike's music: calls 410
*** RIVER *** [Qh Qs Jc 3h] [8h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Brenz: shows [Jd Qd] (a full house, Queens full of Jacks)
mike's music: shows [3c 3s] (a full house, Threes full of Queens)
mike's music said, "nh"
Brenz collected 1220 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1220 | Rake 0
Board [Qh Qs Jc 3h 8h]
Seat 1: d333grumpy folded on the Turn
Seat 2: 66BIGSLICK66 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: mike's music showed [3c 3s] and lost with a full house, Threes full of Queens
Seat 4: BigGun007 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: slickjoka folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: cabinetman45 (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 7: hcfd (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 8: eddyz33 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 9: Brenz showed [Jd Qd] and won (1220) with a full house, Queens full of Jacks

[CardSharpCook]

please bookmark this link. Hand converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Yes, this is a bad beat post. Also, please don't show the results, it taints discussion. No, you don't get away from this hand. No, she didn't have the nuts. Welcome the forum. Where, oh where is MBE's sticky?

CSC

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
No, she didn't have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
On a QQJ38 board, QJ is looking pretty good.

To the OP: Keep getting your money in in this situation, on average you'll do pretty well.

[mikeyp]

[ QUOTE ]
No, she didn't have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is QJ not the nuts for this hand?

[stantheman]

[ QUOTE ]
How is QJ not the nuts for this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the off chance you're being serious here, QQ. QJ can chop.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, she didn't have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is QJ not the nuts for this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it is not QQ. Another QJ splits the pot.

[mikeyp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How is QJ not the nuts for this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the off chance you're being serious here, QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am being serious. 2 Q's on the board and 1 Q in the players hand. There is one Q left.

[mikeyp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, she didn't have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is QJ not the nuts for this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it is not QQ. Another QJ splits the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is still the best hand possible with the board. Isnt that the nuts?

[stantheman]

I edited. Another QJ chops.

[CondoBrian]

It is the nuts if that's what you're holding. However, if you're holding 33 and the board has two queens, QQ is the nuts. You don't know where the other 2 queens are.

[Pat Southern]

I can't believe there's this many posts about whether QJ is the nuts. QJ is unbeatable here. Its the nuts, whether you can chop or not is irrelevant, its unbeatable, therefore its the nuts.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
It is the nuts if that's what you're holding. However, if you're holding 33 and the board has two queens, QQ is the nuts. You don't know where the other 2 queens are.

[/ QUOTE ]

another good point.

QJ could be refered to as the effective nuts (because if you have it, it is effectively the nuts), but it is not the nuts. The nuts is the best possible hand out there using the board provided.

[CondoBrian]

I can't believe this many people are stating QJ is the nuts.

This post was made from the point of view of a pair of pocket threes. When the flop came down QQJ, from that point of view, QJ was not the nuts. QQ was the nuts. He had no idea where the other two queens were.

The view from the other side of the table - the side with the QJ - was different. QJ was the nuts, as that player knew there was only one other queen out.

What you call the nuts at any given point in time is influenced by what you're holding, period.

[Pat Southern]

No matter what you're holding, QQ and QJ are both the nuts here. IF SOMEBODY HAS QJ THEY CAN NOT BE BEAT.

Think of it this way, if the board is AAA, A2 is still the nuts, although AK is still a better hand, because if you anybody has A2, they can't be beat at that time.

[mts]

yup. QJ is the nuts as well as QQ

[ThrillFactor]

.

[SoBeDude]

This is now an officially useless thread.

nice job children.

[miketurner]

When I said she flopped the nuts... I meant *she* knew it... not that *I* knew it. Can we move along now.

I was excited to see so many replies. I had no idea the argument turned to this. *shrug*

[Aeioux]

OY VEY

[mts]

QQ would be the stone cold nuts on a QQJX board with 1 card to come. QJ is just the nuts because an A or K could come off. Of course QQ would still be the stone cold nuts and thats the bottom line.

[miketurner]

Funny thing is, I really thought people would tell me my $20.00 turn bet was “weak.” And it was. It was designed to look like a weak steel attempt which would encourage a raise from someone else. That’s another reason why I discarded the fact that she might have me actually beat... because what she did was exactly what I wanted her to do. Ironic huh?

[CondoBrian]

Quit trying to change the subject. QQ was the nuts.




And yeah, I hate it when I trap myself.

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
Quit trying to change the subject. QQ was the nuts.




And yeah, I hate it when I trap myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's funny. And yeah, I was trying to move along. Caught me. lol

[Bobby Cannoli]

And my favorite derailing point is not what the nuts are, but your loc!!!!

Brings back fond memories of past 500s, and a great Bob & Tom song..... "Sitting on my van at the Track"... sung to the tune of "Sitting on the Dock of the Bay"

"I left my home in Beech Grove,
Drove around on highway 465....."

Go Indy!!!!

Bob

[istewart]

Nice to see that 2+2 has gone the way of debating what the nuts is...

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice to see that 2+2 has gone the way of debating what the nuts is...

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh god!!!! I really did laugh out loud at this one.

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
And my favorite derailing point is not what the nuts are, but your loc!!!!

Brings back fond memories of past 500s, and a great Bob & Tom song..... "Sitting on my van at the Track"... sung to the tune of "Sitting on the Dock of the Bay"

"I left my home in Beech Grove,
Drove around on highway 465....."

Go Indy!!!!

Bob

[/ QUOTE ]

uh oh, I have a stalker. lol. Yes, I know that song. Man, that's an old one. You must have been around here before they (B&T) were syndicated, cause I don't think they've played that one in years.

[augie00]

Hey guys, in case you didn't know...QJ chops here vs. another QJ.

RETARDS.

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey guys, in case you didn't know...QJ chops here vs. another QJ.

RETARDS.

[/ QUOTE ]


Wow, it just won't stop. lol

[betgo]

Your problem is you need to be able to get away from a big hand. It should have been obvious from all the action you were getting that you were up against a bigger full house.

[CondoBrian]

[ QUOTE ]
Your problem is you need to be able to get away from a big hand. It should have been obvious from all the action you were getting that you were up against a bigger full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or QQ. That would have sucked, since it was the nuts.

[Bataglin]

You got action from a perfect stack for this situation. No, you can't get away now, even though you suspect you might be beat. What if your opponent had you covered? That is the question.

You're all nuts.

[Jax_Grinder]

Having made it this far, I feel compelled to add....

YOU'RE ALL WRONG, THESE ARE THE NUTS:

http://www.thenutfactory.com/photos/mixtures-nuts-deluxe-rs.jpg

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
Your problem is you need to be able to get away from a big hand. It should have been obvious from all the action you were getting that you were up against a bigger full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Is this because I showed the results? At what point in the hand do you lay it down? Remember that online players seem to push this hand a lot of times with NOTHING. Or maybe she has a Jack (or something even weaker like 88) and is thinking that I am pushing this hand with nothing, causing her to “slap me back”. I’m not arguing or defending my play. I didn’t post here for validation, I just need more info on when and specifically why your play differs from mine. Thanks.

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
You got action from a perfect stack for this situation. No, you can't get away now, even though you suspect you might be beat. What if your opponent had you covered? That is the question.

You're all nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

If she has me covered, I go broke here. I know I don't have the nuts, but I still think I have the best hand. I still think she might just "not believe" I have the best hand... but I'm still open minded and looking for reasons to learn not to go broke here.

[CondoBrian]

In all seriousness... I read in one of my myriad poker books a quote that said, "If you lose with a full house and don't lose lots of money, you played it wrong." Or something to that effect. I tend to agree with that assessment. It'd be nice to lay down that boat, but I don't know how you do it. I lost with a boat in a live game a few weeks ago, and the only reason I didn't lose more is the guy was arguing with the dealer that I *could* raise again since we were heads up. Of course, that was a sure sign I was beaten and I called...