The flush draw in late position - raising vs calling?

[moot]

I can post some HHs later on if there's any confusion.

Basically, lets say you flop the nut flush draw in late position. For clarity's sake, lets say you raised with ATs in LP, and 5 people see the flop. The person directly to your right bets. Should you raise or just call to encourage more callers?

Now in the past I would sometimes simply just call. But lately I've been raising almost exclusively, and I think it's a better line. Many who were going to call one will call two. If it gets reraised and there are at least two others in I'm fine with that. Plus on the turn, depending on how many are in and my reads, it often gives me the option of betting or taking a free card.

Always raise? Your thoughts?

[Firefly]

it depends.
Are the players behind you loose?
What is the board texture? Drawy, or drawless
Do you have 2 overcards or one?
What is the nature of the flop bettor? Loose, agro or passive?

In poker there are rarely any absolutes.

[moot]

[ QUOTE ]
Are the players behind you loose?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I play mostly play .5/1 full. Think that answers that question.


[ QUOTE ]
What is the board texture? Drawy, or drawless

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I can tell you that there is a FLUSH draw out there.


[ QUOTE ]
Do you have 2 overcards or one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Always at least one with the nut flush draw. I think the difference between one and two is somewhat minor. I don't see how this dramatically affects my decision to raise or call.


[ QUOTE ]
What is the nature of the flop bettor? Loose, agro or passive?

[/ QUOTE ]

Loose and stupid in most cases.

[Bodhi]

I agree 100%. Raise. The people who play junk will call 2 bets anyway.

[Bodhi]

Yeah, come on firefly, this is the microlimit forum, and you're smart enough to figure out the answers to your own questions.

[Stinkybeaver]

So far I've always called this to encourage more people to stay in.

However this freecard line sounds rather tempting.

I do think that the call would make for a bigger pot in the end. Say you hit on turn well now it might be checked to you so you can take the free card. However now you bet. If you had called the flop only chances are someone is betting the turn alowing you to raise.

Same line goes for river.

I seriously doubt which is the better line

[atnels]

I like it, especially in the scenario you described.

[atnels]

Well, the pot size isn't as important as the equity edge Hero has here since he's still drawing. Building a giant pot doesn't do you any good if you're holding A high when all the cards are out.

The key here is knowing how your opponents will react to facing two cold. If you -knew- your raise would fold out everyone but the original bettor, it may or may not be a good idea. It's a bad idea because your equity edge just went to crap, but you may take control of the hand or win the pot right there if the bettor was just taking a stab for whatever reason.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I can post some HHs later on if there's any confusion.

Basically, lets say you flop the nut flush draw in late position. For clarity's sake, lets say you raised with ATs in LP, and 5 people see the flop. The person directly to your right bets. Should you raise or just call to encourage more callers?

Now in the past I would sometimes simply just call. But lately I've been raising almost exclusively, and I think it's a better line. Many who were going to call one will call two. If it gets reraised and there are at least two others in I'm fine with that. Plus on the turn, depending on how many are in and my reads, it often gives me the option of betting or taking a free card.

Always raise? Your thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling invites trouble. The pot is already 11 SB, I want to maximize my chances of winning this pot, I *might* still have best hand (board texture matters here), I *might* be able to drive out better hands (say small pocket pairs, bottom pair), I might get a free card, I might get cold-callers paying two bets and padding my equity anyway.

Read this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2514858&page=&view=&s b=5&o=) because it's almost an identical situation, but with a specific hand.

[AngelicPenguin]

It's a raise for two reasons
1) For a free card
2) To increase your chance of winning if you hit your A

If they all call, fine, you have a large pot equity and make money on every bet.
If most fold, fine, pot is large, and you increased your chance to win it if you hit your A but miss your flush draw.
Obviously, checked to you and you don't improve, you should check unless you think there is a chance betting might win the hand.

[Firefly]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I play mostly play .5/1 full. Think that answers that question.

[/ QUOTE ]
If that answers my question. You are dead wrong. .5/1 is full of awful players. Not all of them are loose. Some of them are rocks, some are maniacs.. you need to know this information.
[ QUOTE ]
What is the board texture? Drawy, or drawless


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Well, I can tell you that there is a FLUSH draw out there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, I forgot there was a flush draw out there. </sarcasm> I mean is the board 456 or is the board Q72? It does make a difference. These points become finer as you move up.

[ QUOTE ]
Always at least one with the nut flush draw. I think the difference between one and two is somewhat minor. I don't see how this dramatically affects my decision to raise or call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Once again. If you have two overcards, it's worth trying to clean them up by raising. One overcard is probaly enough in a large pot

[ QUOTE ]
Loose and stupid in most cases.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, so he's stupid. Why didn't you include that in the OP? Doesn't it make a difference in the hand?

The answer is usually raise, because you are in position with overcard(s) and a flush draw. You do want to build the pot, you need to understand the factors that it takes best to build the pot.
Have a good day
Firefly