Why I switched to Party [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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benza13

06-02-2005, 12:48 PM

My first post after lurking for a while. I want to thank everyone that posts on this site, the discussions here could make anyone (ok almost anyone) a better player.

After about a year playing on UB I hit a horrid run. I was a winning player, not great, but making some money. Then I got cocky. I played above my limits and put myself into a 3 month downward spiral. I decided to take a break from cards. After about a week off I stumbled onto this site and started reading. Another week later I was making my first deposit at Party, I couldn't hold off anymore. I've been 3-4 tabling and doing quite well in the $11s so far, learning a lot from these forums. This hand below shows why I switched to Party and why I probably won't be leaving, unless the fish dry up.

Before you look at the results, try to put them on hands, I know I was surprised at showdown, I'll admit I got a little worried after 3 calls. This was the first hand by the way, the preflop call of the raise I think was ok based on the pot size and potential. Flame me if I am wrong...I'm here to learn.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t800)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)
Hero (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t800)
Button (t800)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t15, Hero calls t15, 2 folds, MP2 raises to t70, MP3 calls t70, 1 fold, Button calls t70, 2 folds, UTG calls t55, Hero calls t55.

Flop: (t375) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets t175, MP3 calls t175, Button calls t175, UTG folds, Hero raises to t730 (All-In), MP2 calls t555 (All-In), MP3 calls t555 (All-In), Button calls t555 (All-In).

Turn: (t3295) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players, 4 all-in)

River: (t3295) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players, 4 all-in)

Final Pot: t3295

Results in white below: 
Hero has 5d 5s (three of a kind, fives).
MP2 has Ks Qh (two pair, kings and queens).
MP3 has 9s Qs (two pair, queens and nines).
Button has Ac Qc (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins t3295.

NYCNative

06-02-2005, 12:50 PM

Prediction: You will get a lot of "Fold Preflop" responses.

MentalCombat

06-02-2005, 12:53 PM

nah, he was getting almost 7-1 pot odds, that plus implied more than covers his set odds. I call this all day. Then again, I'm a luckbox :-P

kyro

06-02-2005, 12:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
nah, he was getting 5-1 pot odds, that plus implied more than covers his set odds. I call this all day. Then again, I'm a luckbox :-P

[/ QUOTE ]

He's calling off just under 1/10 of his stack on the sole chance of hitting a set. It's not a terrible call, but it's not one I'd particularly make with 800 stacks.

jcm4ccc

06-02-2005, 12:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Prediction: You will get a lot of "Fold Preflop" responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

No he won't.

spentrent

06-02-2005, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Prediction: You will get a lot of "Fold Preflop" responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be a leak and a half... he's almost got immediate odds to play! Surely he'll be paid off if he spikes a set.

NYCNative

06-02-2005, 12:56 PM

Come on... Many people here advocated folding Jacks in EP early in a Party SNG. You think they're gonna be thrilled with limp-call with 5s?

igotBlackJak

06-02-2005, 12:57 PM

Thought process of each player at the river in this 10+1.

[ QUOTE ]

Hero has 5d 5s (three of a kind, fives).

these dudes are idiots, right?

MP2 has Ks Qh (two pair, kings and queens).

"What are these fools doing, i got top pair"

MP3 has 9s Qs (two pair, queens and nines).

"Man i'm glad that 9 came, im so ahead here. They are all chasing flushes I bet"

Button has Ac Qc (one pair, queens).

This is the best hand ive had all game... if I lose i'm gonna call them all noobs for betting into me"

Outcome: Hero wins t3295.

[/ QUOTE ]

benza13

06-02-2005, 12:59 PM

I think I had the odds to call, I dont mind playing with a short stack and I'll probably fold 27 out of the next 29 hands anyways. If I hit the set and can double up, then I'm cruising to the money. Plus, there was no chance of a reraise after me as I'm last to act.

gumpzilla

06-02-2005, 12:59 PM

The river? I can't imagine they were thinking much at the river, seeing as the action was done on the flop. And while KQ and Q9 definitely should have folded, I'm folding AQs with the four-flush in this situation approximately never.

jcm4ccc

06-02-2005, 01:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Come on... Many people here advocated folding Jacks in EP early in a Party SNG. You think they're gonna be thrilled with limp-call with 5s?

[/ QUOTE ]

I stand by my prediction.

kyro

06-02-2005, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I had the odds to call, I dont mind playing with a short stack and I'll probably fold 27 out of the next 29 hands anyways. If I hit the set and can double up, then I'm cruising to the money. Plus, there was no chance of a reraise after me as I'm last to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

The others are swaying me. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. I make this call in a flash at 55s and higher (1000 chip starting stack), but I'm afraid you're weakening yourself early here.

spentrent

06-02-2005, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Come on... Many people here advocated folding Jacks in EP early in a Party SNG. You think they're gonna be thrilled with limp-call with 5s?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hopefully those weakies will stay out of this thread. If you have to let 15 chips die because someone raises it a bunch behind you, big [censored] deal.

I'd rather raise JJ in EP but I'm on an aggro streak lately.

tech

06-02-2005, 01:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Many people here advocated folding Jacks in EP early in a Party SNG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow ... and I thought I was tight.

Freudian

06-02-2005, 01:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Come on... Many people here advocated folding Jacks in EP early in a Party SNG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like a link to the topic where that is said.

Jman28

06-02-2005, 01:43 PM

*deleted because you posted a link*

dhende3

06-02-2005, 01:44 PM

He is getting almost 7 to 1 pot odds and it is 7.5 to 1 to hit a set (the only way I would EVER stay in this hand post flop). I am folding pre-flop every time here, the extra 55 is more important to my folding equity in level 4 than chasing a set and hoping to get paid off level 1. Situations like these are very rare.

jeffraider

06-02-2005, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
nah, he was getting 5-1 pot odds, that plus implied more than covers his set odds. I call this all day. Then again, I'm a luckbox :-P

[/ QUOTE ]

He's calling off just under 1/10 of his stack on the sole chance of hitting a set. It's not a terrible call, but it's not one I'd particularly make with 800 stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly. I'd probably fold preflop but I don't think limp-calling with these odds is bad.

NYCNative

06-02-2005, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would like a link to the topic where that is said.

[/ QUOTE ] Here you go (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2452235&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=all&vc=1)

Not ALL people said to fold them, but enough did... And I can't see those people any more thrilled with 5s.

MentalCombat

06-02-2005, 01:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would like a link to the topic where that is said.

[/ QUOTE ] Here you go (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2452235&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=all&vc=1)

Not ALL people said to fold them, but enough did... And I can't see those people any more thrilled with 5s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldnt fold the JJ either, but some people would be more apt to call the 55 because there are already 5 people in the pot which helps your set odds vs. pot odds a lot.

Jman28

06-02-2005, 01:53 PM

gumpzilla

06-02-2005, 01:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Not ALL people said to fold them, but enough did... And I can't see those people any more thrilled with 5s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at the poll, 4 of 248 said to fold. That's a pretty small minority. I suspect the rest probably advocate playing them much like you'd play 55.

kyro

06-02-2005, 01:55 PM

Um. 4 people picked fold on the poll. I read one response that actually said fold, and he was obviously kidding. I have no idea what you are talking about.

pooh74

06-02-2005, 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The river? I can't imagine they were thinking much at the river, seeing as the action was done on the flop. And while KQ and Q9 definitely should have folded, I'm folding AQs with the four-flush in this situation approximately never.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah...the AQ hand was the only legit hand...the rest? Well....they dont call it party for nothin..

NYCNative

06-02-2005, 02:02 PM

Read the [censored] thread and get past the poll.

And many of the limpers would fold to a raise too, which is still a "Fold Preflop."

Jman28

06-02-2005, 02:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Um. 4 people picked fold on the poll. I read one response that actually said fold, and he was obviously kidding. I have no idea what you are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

There were a few genuine responses from high level players who advocated folding. I think we all stand corrected.

kyro

06-02-2005, 02:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Um. 4 people picked fold on the poll. I read one response that actually said fold, and he was obviously kidding. I have no idea what you are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

There were a few genuine responses from high level players who advocated folding. I think we all stand corrected.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, I saw one poster who advocated folding, and one who said "I know why you would." Keep in mind, these posters were referring to the $215s. Much much different here.

spentrent

06-02-2005, 02:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Um. 4 people picked fold on the poll. I read one response that actually said fold, and he was obviously kidding. I have no idea what you are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

There were a few genuine responses from high level players who advocated folding. I think we all stand corrected.

[/ QUOTE ]

High-level players are facing better competition. Folding JJ UTG is silly at a table full of monkeys.

Jman28

06-02-2005, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Um. 4 people picked fold on the poll. I read one response that actually said fold, and he was obviously kidding. I have no idea what you are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

There were a few genuine responses from high level players who advocated folding. I think we all stand corrected.

[/ QUOTE ]

High-level players are facing better competition. Folding JJ UTG is silly at a table full of monkeys.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I'm just saying,

he said "some people fold JJ here"

we said "no. you're silly."

he said "here's a link"

I said "touche"

adanthar

06-02-2005, 03:44 PM

You know how much folding JJ UTG sucks?

Multiply that by about 3 and that's how much folding 55 after this action sucks.

kyro

06-02-2005, 03:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Um. 4 people picked fold on the poll. I read one response that actually said fold, and he was obviously kidding. I have no idea what you are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

There were a few genuine responses from high level players who advocated folding. I think we all stand corrected.

[/ QUOTE ]

High-level players are facing better competition. Folding JJ UTG is silly at a table full of monkeys.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I'm just saying,

he said "some people fold JJ here"

we said "no. you're silly."

he said "here's a link"

I said "touche"

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong. he said "here's a link" we said. "you're still silly." you said. "maybe he's silly, but he's right." i said, "oh yeah? well let me to try to justify my statement which is really just a coverup for how wrong i was."

NYCNative

06-02-2005, 03:46 PM

Hey, I think it sucks too. I play my jacks and I don't fold the 5s.

All I know is that this forum is insanely weak-tight in the early rounds of SNGs and I am surprised that this seems to have reversed itself, in this thread at least.

Jman28

06-02-2005, 03:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Um. 4 people picked fold on the poll. I read one response that actually said fold, and he was obviously kidding. I have no idea what you are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

There were a few genuine responses from high level players who advocated folding. I think we all stand corrected.

[/ QUOTE ]

High-level players are facing better competition. Folding JJ UTG is silly at a table full of monkeys.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I'm just saying,

he said "some people fold JJ here"

we said "no. you're silly."

he said "here's a link"

I said "touche"

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong. he said "here's a link" we said. "you're still silly." you said. "maybe he's silly, but he's right." i said, "oh yeah? well let me to try to justify my statement which is really just a coverup for how wrong i was."

[/ QUOTE ]

touche

gumpzilla

06-02-2005, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]

All I know is that this forum is insanely weak-tight in the early rounds of SNGs and I am surprised that this seems to have reversed itself, in this thread at least.

[/ QUOTE ]

You play at UB, most of them play at Party. While I tend to agree with your assessment, I think it makes a pretty big difference.

NYCNative

06-02-2005, 03:58 PM

Maybe so but this thread is dealing with a PP hand.

jcm4ccc

06-02-2005, 03:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There were a few genuine responses from high level players who advocated folding. I think we all stand corrected.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, no we don't. NYCNative made these statements:

"You will get a lot of "Fold Preflop" responses."
"Many people here advocated folding Jacks in EP early in a Party SNG"
"Not ALL people said to fold them, but enough did"
"And many of the limpers would fold to a raise too, which is still a "Fold Preflop.""

When I read the link, I think he is vastly distorting the responses to suit his contention that 2+2 posters are a bunch of weak-tight pansies.

I read the responses in the JJ UTG thread. I read the responses in the 55 UTG thread. I think they are very consistent. Anyone who thinks that 2+2 posters would advocate folding 55 in this situation (especially the second call preflop) doesn't understand basic 2+2 strategy.

Jman28

06-02-2005, 04:03 PM

okay

Freudian

06-02-2005, 04:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would like a link to the topic where that is said.

[/ QUOTE ] Here you go (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2452235&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=all&vc=1)

Not ALL people said to fold them, but enough did... And I can't see those people any more thrilled with 5s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Four out of over 200 voted fold and somehow you turned that into the forum line with JJ? Chances are they were just randomly voting to see the results.

jcm4ccc

06-02-2005, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Chances are they were just randomly voting to see the results.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah, that's what I do when I go here: link (http://www.hotornot.com). I rate em all a ten, so I can get to the next picture.

nova

06-02-2005, 04:34 PM

I don't mind the call PF...figure you can close betting wiht the call.(no chance at someone between you pushing all in, everyone runs for the hills, and the raiser gets a free 200 chips). You already limped with 15 and closing it for the CHANCE to hit the set sometimes is worth it. Especially this early in the tournament.

I recently posted a thread about loosening up in level 1 and 2, just for the chance to get paid off: obviously this is a textbook case of paying a bit more to see the flop and ba bam, look what it got you.

If you were in a different position, with even one limper behind you already, I'd consider folding. Since you can close betting, I like the call.

NYCNative

06-02-2005, 04:35 PM

40% of those polled said to limp. How many of them call a raise? Fine I'm guilty of hyperbole. Whatever. The fact is that MANY people here - based on that Jacks thread - would limp-fold with 5s in the early rounds of a 800-chip SNG, for better or worse. I do not find it surprising that most of those who advocated discression with Jacks haven't weighed in here, but my guess is that most of them don't mess with 5s with a raise in front.

gumpzilla

06-02-2005, 04:38 PM

They might limp-fold in some circumstances and limp-call in others. Limp-folding to 1 raiser is a very different beast than limp calling behind a raiser and two or three callers. Without talking about the action in its entirety it's hard to come up with a coherent picture of what to do, and you'll get pretty divergent answers as to how to proceed in the two cases. But keep grinding that axe.

jcm4ccc

06-02-2005, 04:41 PM

Freudian

06-02-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
40% of those polled said to limp. How many of them call a raise? Fine I'm guilty of hyperbole. Whatever. The fact is that MANY people here - based on that Jacks thread - would limp-fold with 5s in the early rounds of a 800-chip SNG, for better or worse. I do not find it surprising that most of those who advocated discression with Jacks haven't weighed in here, but my guess is that most of them don't mess with 5s with a raise in front.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course most here would limp-fold with 55 in level 1 normally (this hand is an anomaly since there are so many calling a raise preflop that you can play it for set value based on the preflop pot odds). That is because we have understood the concept of not bleeding chips in levels 1-3 when you only start with 800.

I think most of your poker advice on these forums are suspect. You seem to go too far for too many chips far too early in the tournaments. If it works out for you, great but I suspect you are giving up a tonne of folding equity too early far too often.

NYCNative

06-02-2005, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Of course most here would limp-fold with 55 in level 1 normally (this hand is an anomaly since there are so many calling a raise preflop that you can play it for set value based on the preflop pot odds).

[/ QUOTE ]Which is all I was saying. And before I got gang-tackeld, a few people above said they would be reluctant to make the call even though they knew it was "right" because of the chip bleed with an 800-chip tourney.[ QUOTE ]
I think most of your poker advice on these forums are suspect.

[/ QUOTE ]Well, I suggest you don't follow it then. *shrugs*

I don't play at 800-chip tournaments because I like post-flop play, don't mind 90 minute SNGs and generally like playing poker. I make no bones about the fact that I play at 1,500 chip levels or that my motivations for playing are different than the multi-tabling folks who live and die by the almighty ROI and have nightmares about variance monsters.

I also begrudge nobody how they get enjoyment. I just like the same courtesy.

The observation that many who play the 800 levels are weak-tight is hardly a revelation. Sorry my off-hand hyperbole to make that point got a few peoples' panties in a bunch.

For the record, I call that raise even if only ONE person was left in the pot because I want to see that flop. If you care to hyperbolize that by calling me a maniac chip-bleeder, I'll be glad to not decide to make a federal case over it.

I also play my Jacks with a raise too. Ooh, I'm out of control...

Freudian

06-02-2005, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The observation that many who play the 800 levels are weak-tight is hardly a revelation. Sorry my off-hand hyperbole to make that point got a few peoples' panties in a bunch.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't seem to understand that after one or two failed fancy attempts at postflop mastery in levels 1-3 your folding equity is gone with 800 starting chips.

Of course if you start with 1500 chips and a slow blind structure everything changes (especially in the early levels), but perhaps you shouldn't give UB-advice in threads about Party hands.

NYCNative

06-02-2005, 05:11 PM

Um, I didn't even GIVE any advice in this thread.

Really, of you want to get in the last word, I'll stop responding though.