Trying to learn how to read hands....

[KingOtter]

I need to get into the minds of the opponents more. I didn't think their hands through last night, but I'm going through the hand today to see how to 'read' this board. Any input would be nice.

No reads on MP2; he just sat down. I've only seen him for 5 hands, but he had only played his post when this one hit about his 6th hand at the table.

BB is a tight passive over 50+ hands. No pfr, not much post-flop aggression at all. He even checked an Aces-full boat on the river, after calling down a trip-Aces from the flop. The only time I saw him bet besides here was on the river when he had a straight.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

If I had been suited, I would have raised. Truth be told, I didn't really care much for entering this pot, but with all those people.... I felt had to.

Flop: (8 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

I actually cursed because I got a gutshot, and a backdoor flush, and plenty of odds to call.

Mr. Mild Mannered Never-Bet bets out on the flop. There's a first time for everything. His pfr was 0% for more than 50 hands, so he could have anything, really. He probably only pfraises high pockets. So AK, AQ, AJ, AT? Most of those are unlikely (Q,J in my hand, T on the board).. But I think it would have to be an A for him to bet. I don't see him betting low pocket pairs, or a flush draw.

Callers are all callers. They could be calling with just about anything, like me.

Turn: (7 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, CO folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls, MP1 folds.

Well, see, these are the spots you get into with this kind of hands. I still have the gutshot, and now I have a flush draw. Even calling 2 bets I'm getting 5:1, plenty odds to call. But what does MP2 have? Made flush? I don't really know MP2 very well, so I assume it is the flush.

BB doesn't 3-bet it, so AT is probably out, although he didn't bet when trips hit the board before.

With the action this round I think BB bet his high pair, and MP2 hit his flush.

River: (14 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Well hallelujah, backdoors do hit. I'm scared of the King, though, since I think MP2 has a flush, and he isn't scared of the 4 cards on the board. I decide not to raise it, and just call to see if my Q is good.

Final Pot: 17 BB

So... is this anything like my thought process SHOULD be when I'm playing?

[MrWookie47]

The part I disagree with is where you automatically give MP2 credit for the flush. He'd very likely play a T the same way, at least on the turn. I think your play is good, though, since the river is a fairly decent spot to go for overcalls.

[iNsChris]

Preflop No idea.

Flop: BB Ax, Mp2 Draw/Mid pair

Turn: Mp2 hit trips/Flush, BB hit two pair(Tens + aces i think)

River: BB realises a flush is 100% there and checks, Mp2 holds nuts/flush and doesn't care what you hold.

Look forward to results.

[deception5]

This looks fine. The turn raise is usually a made hand like trip tens, a slowplayed set which just turned full house, or sometimes an ace with a bad kicker (figuring their kicker won't play with a decent river card). It could also be a made flush or a hand like K /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ who just improved to a gutshot/flush draw.

On the river if Mr. Never Bets weren't around I would raise this but I think going for the overcall is more prudent here. Tell me he didn't have the full house and was afraid of quads /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
I need to get into the minds of the opponents more. I didn't think their hands through last night, but I'm going through the hand today to see how to 'read' this board. Any input would be nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess. With reads, only really works with tight players, loose are all over the place, and not much you can do there. I try and make notes on any unusal plays for all players (eg smooth-calling AA under the gun, playing out of position etc). You gotta think about what tight players (or loose ones if they're consistent) would play in the position they're sitting at. If they raise UTG, they probly got AA-QQ, AK, and so on.

One mistake I still make is to decide on a single hand pretty quickly, and play to that - only to be wrong! Better to decide a range of hands, and associate a percentage on each group.

You'll read will tend to get refined (or become obviously wrong) with each round of betting. It's a thing you just need to practice until it becomes second nature. Just remember the exercise is not very worthwhile with loose players with often play out of position or bet inappropriately for their hand pre-flop.


With mister tight passive, that bet on the flop could only be AA or AT in his hand. I'd say. I'd have folded there - and definitely have folded with the T on the turn.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
The part I disagree with is where you automatically give MP2 credit for the flush. He'd very likely play a T the same way, at least on the turn. I think your play is good, though, since the river is a fairly decent spot to go for overcalls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good point.

I usually tend to discount trips when the board pairs because of the odds against it. I guess I should let the play influence this consideration more?

KO

[Aaron W.]

It's tough when you see these tight-passive guys bet out for the first time. On the flop, I would probably give him credit for AK-AT/A6, but that's a small list, even for tight-passive. There's a chance that he's got something like 98s, 97s, or KJs for the flush draw + gut shot -- maybe even he knows that that's an awesome drawing hand with 8 players. When he bet-calls the turn, I'm actually leaning more towards a weak flush; I somewhat expect him to check-call the AK-AJ combinations. The river check-call is also slightly more consistent with a flush than with an ace, but it's hard to favor one strongly over the other.

In either case, you played it well.

[crownjules]

I'd play QJo on the button, even though it's not the best of multiway hands. QJs is, but I wouldn't raise it. Am I wrong in that?

From your description of the players, BB is betting the Ace. I would guess AK/AQ. MP2 coming alive on the turned T is a tougher read because he could either have trips or the flush. I'm also surprised that BB would bet out on a 3-flush board as the TPs I encounter usually get scared off by it.

Given the action, I'm not afraid of many hands being present that would have made boats. BB is tough since he's so passive, but his action suggests AK/AQ...maybe AJ. MP2 came alive on a difficult card to read. I'm worried about him holding either JT or the K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Given that you hold another J, it's less likely he holds a third. So you're real concern lies in just one card beating you, that darn K.

How is going for the overcall the play? Raising, knocking him out, and MP2 calling is the same as going for the overcall. BB may call 2 cold, but raising does expose you to a 3-bet which may or may not be a good thing. Not sure what is "correct" here.

[afk]

Hey KingOtter I think you played this one well. As much as calling two cold on the turn feels awkward I'm pretty sure this is fine.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I need to get into the minds of the opponents more. I didn't think their hands through last night, but I'm going through the hand today to see how to 'read' this board. Any input would be nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess. With reads, only really works with tight players, loose are all over the place, and not much you can do there. I try and make notes on any unusal plays for all players (eg smooth-calling AA under the gun, playing out of position etc). You gotta think about what tight players (or loose ones if they're consistent) would play in the position they're sitting at. If they raise UTG, they probly got AA-QQ, AK, and so on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno... I think I've seen a tendency even in loose players to call down with pairs, or overcards but when they have nothing, they fold. So I give them a little more credit for a hand if they call a flop-bet on a ragged board. Just a little more credit, though.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I agree about the odd plays, though, and I do the same thing. Raising gutshots, etc.

[ QUOTE ]

One mistake I still make is to decide on a single hand pretty quickly, and play to that - only to be wrong! Better to decide a range of hands, and associate a percentage on each group.


[/ QUOTE ]

Me too, so that's why I want to go through these hands and maybe practice the hand-reading so the other hands tend to enter my mind more often.

[ QUOTE ]
You'll read will tend to get refined (or become obviously wrong) with each round of betting. It's a thing you just need to practice until it becomes second nature. Just remember the exercise is not very worthwhile with loose players with often play out of position or bet inappropriately for their hand pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The good thing about doing it after-the-hand when they went down to the river is I know what they had.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I think I'm pretty good at ignoring result-oriented thinking, and so I'm trying it this way. It may be futile, but who knows. Even if I learn that I learned something.

[ QUOTE ]
With mister tight passive, that bet on the flop could only be AA or AT in his hand. I'd say. I'd have folded there - and definitely have folded with the T on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot is way too big to fold, IMO. Especially when I have a chance of bringing in a premium hand (straight or flush) that might win it. I'm not scared of trips or high pairs with those hands.

Mr Never-Bet is tight and passive, but I still think he would pfr AA. This is just an opinion, so there's nothing really concrete I can say to prove it, I guess. Although, I see a lot of players like him. People who smooth-call AA are usually trying to be tricky, not cautious. I think this guy is cautious. I think in the long run his pfr will be 3-4% as AA, KK, maybe AKs would be raised... he just didn't get any last night (guess I gave that away, he didn't have AA here).

KO

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd play QJo on the button, even though it's not the best of multiway hands. QJs is, but I wouldn't raise it. Am I wrong in that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I would have raised QJs. Suited are much better multi-way than non-suited. And that is exactly why I was irked by playing this. I wanted it to be suited. QJo isn't a multi-way hand unless it hits a draw on the flop, which it did, but I would have preferred a 9T on the board instead of AT, heh.

[ QUOTE ]
From your description of the players, BB is betting the Ace. I would guess AK/AQ. MP2 coming alive on the turned T is a tougher read because he could either have trips or the flush. I'm also surprised that BB would bet out on a 3-flush board as the TPs I encounter usually get scared off by it.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the kinds of insights I'm looking for. Thanks!

[ QUOTE ]
Given the action, I'm not afraid of many hands being present that would have made boats. BB is tough since he's so passive, but his action suggests AK/AQ...maybe AJ. MP2 came alive on a difficult card to read. I'm worried about him holding either JT or the K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Given that you hold another J, it's less likely he holds a third. So you're real concern lies in just one card beating you, that darn K.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good info.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
How is going for the overcall the play? Raising, knocking him out, and MP2 calling is the same as going for the overcall. BB may call 2 cold, but raising does expose you to a 3-bet which may or may not be a good thing. Not sure what is "correct" here.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the same if I'm winning, but not if I'm losing. I'm not confident enough in my hand being good here to risk another bet of my money.

KO

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
It's tough when you see these tight-passive guys bet out for the first time. On the flop, I would probably give him credit for AK-AT/A6, but that's a small list, even for tight-passive. There's a chance that he's got something like 98s, 97s, or KJs for the flush draw + gut shot -- maybe even he knows that that's an awesome drawing hand with 8 players. When he bet-calls the turn, I'm actually leaning more towards a weak flush; I somewhat expect him to check-call the AK-AJ combinations. The river check-call is also slightly more consistent with a flush than with an ace, but it's hard to favor one strongly over the other.

In either case, you played it well.

[/ QUOTE ]

You nailed BB. He had 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for a small flush.

I never would have expected him to bet a flush draw on the flop given his Mr. Never-Bet history. I guess he realized the equity with all those people?

KO

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
This looks fine. The turn raise is usually a made hand like trip tens, a slowplayed set which just turned full house, or sometimes an ace with a bad kicker (figuring their kicker won't play with a decent river card). It could also be a made flush or a hand like K /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ who just improved to a gutshot/flush draw.

On the river if Mr. Never Bets weren't around I would raise this but I think going for the overcall is more prudent here. Tell me he didn't have the full house and was afraid of quads /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, that would be in character. Turns out he had a low flush... and MP2 had K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif. He made trip 10's on the turn and the nut flush on the river. So you got him read pretty well.

For what it's worth when he raised I put him on K /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I figured he had the flush to go with it, but I was wrong there.

Many kudos to those putting BB on the flush.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

KO