A8s vs Loose-Passive Fish? How'd I do?

[johnc]

This actually my 1st hand post so be patient if it's a little clumsy in format.

Reads: SB was very loose, and very passive all session, just calling pf w/ AA,KK in position. VP$IP of 60.98 (yes it's true) a PF raise % of zero over 82 hands.


Ultimate Bet .25/.50, 6max

SB posts the small blind of $.10.
BB posts the big blind of $.25.

Hero is on the button with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Pre-flop:

UTG folds. CO folds. Hero calls.
SB calls. BB checks.

Raise this?


Flop (board: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif):(3 players, 3SB)

SB checks. BB checks. Hero bets. SB calls. BB folds.

Ok, not the board I wanted to see but had to bet my top frickin pair. Just a call, my concerns are the flush & the str8 draws, but HU I believe my chances are ok, so on to the turn.

Turn (board: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/spade.gif):(2 players, 2.5BB)

SB checks. Hero bets. SB
raises. Hero calls.

The 3rd spade really sucked, but my read on SB was the on going love affair with aces, sticking around, calling w/virtually nothing hoping to hit. The raise is where things got a little murky, and slowed me down. A raise from SB was rather unusual and only happened a couple of times in the session. I went into my shell hoping my 2-pair held up. Weak?

River (board: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif): 6.5BB

SB checks. Hero checks.

I opted to just check behind and hope. Thought a river bet would have been overboard at the time but looking the hand over later and SB's play I don't think a C/R was a possibility. What do you think?

[Twitch1977]

Preflop: I'd definetely be raising.

Flop: As it is.

Turn: I'd reraise, to put someone on a flush just because he raised you there is premature. It could just as easily be a weak ace which he would almost certainly raise heads up. You've got two pair heads up. That's a strong hand don't let one raise convince you otherwise.

River: No question this is an easy river bet.

T

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
River: No question this is an easy river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

edit: Sorry I should add to that. Hero gets check-raised by a complete loose passive on the turn and then checked to again on the river (maybe he wussed out of betting, maybe he's trying to c/r again). Hero's two pair is a strong hand but I don't think there are too many hands villain will call with that hero beats.

[Twitch1977]

I would bet the river because the SB showed no strength throughout the hand rather then the check-raise on the turn and for me that's hardly enough to convince me that two pair is beat. I don't think he would try a check-raise on the river if he did have a strong hand since the chance it would get checked through is so high.

I think there are a lot of hands that we still beat at this point.

T

Edit: I think reraising the check-raise on the turn would help clarify things for the river.

[afk]

Yeah maybe I'm undervaluing hero's hand. And it's weird that he checks again on the river, since the c/r standards of loose passives are usually really high.

[Nick C]

Preflop: I would raise. In this case, it's not really a steal, as there's little chance both blinds will fold, but it is for value, against two random hands.

Flop: Good bet. Middle pair, top kicker is a good hand in a 3-way pot. You're probably ahead.

Turn: A turn checkraise from someone who is very passive and hardly ever raises at all is a concern. You won't run into too many flushes in short-handed pots versus just the blinds, but I'm worried about it here. (All the same, based on the way the hand has played up until now, BB shouldn't have you on aces up. I don't know how much he's thinking about that, though.)

River: I guess you should probably bet. If checkraised by this opponent again, I think chances are you should fold, but I rarely fold two pair in a pot that began 3-way (and quickly became heads-up) with no preflop raise, so I probably wouldn't here either.

One problem is that BB could have flopped a straight or a set but then started worrying about the flush potential when you called his turn checkraise, in which case you're getting called. But he also could just have a worse two pair or perhaps even just an ace, in which case you're also getting called.

Anyway, turn checkraises from very passive players usually mean trouble unless you can beat the obvious big hands on the board. But when you're playing against someone who doesn't know how to place value on his hand very accurately, it's hard to know.

I've had to teach myself not to panic when I get checkraised since moving up beyond micro-limits (and B&M 3/6, which plays similarly). But checkraises from passive players usually represent a big hand, so there is reason to fear them. (Edit: I should clarify. What I mean is, you should respect the checkraise from a passive player once it happens. You shouldn't, however, start missing value bets with strong hands out of fear of getting checkraised.)

[johnc]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: I'd definetely be raising.

Flop: As it is.

Turn: I'd reraise, to put someone on a flush just because he raised you there is premature. It could just as easily be a weak ace which he would almost certainly raise heads up. You've got two pair heads up. That's a strong hand don't let one raise convince you otherwise.

River: No question this is an easy river bet.

T

[/ QUOTE ]

I should've raised pf, the c/r on the turn definately got my attention considering the passiveness of the SB the whole session. My 1st reaction was that she hit her ace and was trying to be tricky ( I had c/r'd her a few times earlier in the session) or was using the scare card to take a stab at the pot. I understand the argument for a re-raise to define my 2-pair but against passive opponents who play straight forward to that point it just seemed a bit too risky.

[cmwck]

Open-limping in a 5-handed game == bad.

I probably would have played it the same. I don't think you can fold to the c/r without a very strong read. And he may play differently in heads up or short-handed situations.

On the river, I think SB is either trying to check-raise you again with a monster, or is giving up with a bluff or another weak hand you beat. I think either checking behind or betting and folding to a check-raise is the way to go.

[johnc]

The check raise on the river is why I just checked thru. For the record she showed down Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif apparently her weak str8 never materialized so she decided to get tricky and c/r bluff me out of the pot?!?! I guess all the c/rs I put inflicted on her was tapping on the aquarium. I guess you can't give these fish too much credit.

P.S. she's on my buddy list, now.

[Somekid]

Definitely raise PF, it's short-handed and you can take control of the hand. I think you should bet the river. The SB probably has a weak ace. However, I agree that the river check after a C/R is pretty suspicious.

[irishpint]

raise pf
bet flop
3bet turn
bet river
enjoy your $

[johnc]

Yeah, I wussed out on this one. Didn't trust my reads which proved to be good.

[imported_exelius]

I would have done everything the same except I would bet on the river. I would have called pf also but I guess a raise is justified.

Ex

[Nfinity]

I'm going to start replying to 6-max hands now, and not just the ones with clear answers.

Pre-Flop: Raise it like your trying to steal something(the blinds??)

Flop: You don't have top-pair, but you still bet this.

Turn: Your bet-call is fine in this situation, but this is where reads become important for your River decisions.

River: Your reads? Is he a loose, fairly non-thinking player who would CR his paired Ace, even with the obvious flush on board? Is he capable of bluffing scare cards? Is he a donk who would actually think a CR is possible here against you?

Based on his play I'm gonna go ahead and say Value bet your 2 pair. He either whiffed his bluff, is a tight player who turned his Ace, but is now afraid of all the Straight and Flush nonsense going on and wants a cheap showdown, or a bad player who did the same.

Ern, now that I think about it, He could be a good player who turned a better 2 pair, but I think a good player would RR AJ pre-flop.

To recap- READS ARE g00t

I'm sure you have already been told about the hand converter.

Edit: Didn't even bother to read the title for your reads, sorry.

[Nfinity]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the river because the SB showed no strength throughout the hand rather then the check-raise on the turn and for me that's hardly enough to convince me that two pair is beat. I don't think he would try a check-raise on the river if he did have a strong hand since the chance it would get checked through is so high.

I think there are a lot of hands that we still beat at this point.

T

Edit: I think reraising the check-raise on the turn would help clarify things for the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do when he calls the Turn then? Fold to a River bet? Me too.

...or you could save that bet, to call a river bet, and in this case get to showdown with your hand, like you said, your hand is very strong HU.

[johnc]

The SB had playing like a really loose-passive donk the whole session. 6max tables at this limit seem to attract the worst but to be frank I really didn't think this player was capable of a c/r, however my reads, notes, and pt info indicated she was an idiot - she was.

[Stinkybeaver]

I think raisepreflop. But i'm not playing 6max anyways

Otherwise I play the same against this type of player. Could bet river for value but then you should fold to a raise.

I'd play it pretty much the same

[Nfinity]

[ QUOTE ]
The SB had playing like a really loose-passive donk the whole session. 6max tables at this limit seem to attract the worst but to be frank I really didn't think this player was capable of a c/r, however my reads, notes, and pt info indicated she was an idiot - she was.

[/ QUOTE ]

All the more reason to bet that River.

save a kitten, Value bet the river.

[Stinkybeaver]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the river because the SB showed no strength throughout the hand rather then the check-raise on the turn and for me that's hardly enough to convince me that two pair is beat. I don't think he would try a check-raise on the river if he did have a strong hand since the chance it would get checked through is so high.

I think there are a lot of hands that we still beat at this point.

T

Edit: I think reraising the check-raise on the turn would help clarify things for the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree given the read on this player as beeing very very passive indeed. Therefor even a single checkraise makes you wonder.

And any spade beats you so I'd rather do the call down mode.
Say you 3-bet should you fold to a cap then because you know he has a flush. If you call and fold river UI then I think going for call down mode is a better line since you get a showdown for the same ammount of bets.

[Stinkybeaver]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the river because the SB showed no strength throughout the hand rather then the check-raise on the turn and for me that's hardly enough to convince me that two pair is beat. I don't think he would try a check-raise on the river if he did have a strong hand since the chance it would get checked through is so high.

I think there are a lot of hands that we still beat at this point.

T

Edit: I think reraising the check-raise on the turn would help clarify things for the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree given the read on this player as beeing very very passive indeed. Therefor even a single checkraise makes you wonder.

And any spade beats you so I'd rather do the call down mode.
Say you 3-bet should you fold to a cap then because you know he has a flush. If you call and fold river UI then I think going for call down mode is a better line since you get a showdown for the same ammount of bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I thought there where 4 cards to a flush. In this case with his GO and STOP /images/graemlins/smile.gif I think you bet river for value. and cry like hell when you call his second checkraise which makes you feel a bit outplayed.

[Nfinity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the river because the SB showed no strength throughout the hand rather then the check-raise on the turn and for me that's hardly enough to convince me that two pair is beat. I don't think he would try a check-raise on the river if he did have a strong hand since the chance it would get checked through is so high.

I think there are a lot of hands that we still beat at this point.

T

Edit: I think reraising the check-raise on the turn would help clarify things for the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree given the read on this player as beeing very very passive indeed. Therefor even a single checkraise makes you wonder.

And any spade beats you so I'd rather do the call down mode.
Say you 3-bet should you fold to a cap then because you know he has a flush. If you call and fold river UI then I think going for call down mode is a better line since you get a showdown for the same ammount of bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I thought there where 4 cards to a flush. In this case with his GO and STOP /images/graemlins/smile.gif I think you bet river for value. and cry like hell when you call his second checkraise which makes you feel a bit outplayed.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't call his second check-raise.