is this stealing

[Ray Zee]

if i pay you to watch something for eight hours. and you only do it for four but dont tell me and take my money is that stealing.

if i pay you for eight hours work and assign you a task and you finish sooner but then do something else for your own benefit. is that stealing.

is surfing the net while at work stealing if the boss doesnt know you are doing it.

[istewart]

My best friend is:

http://www.durrellwildlife.org/upload%2FMainSite%2FGraphics%2FMainImages%2Flarge% 20question%20mark.jpg

[threeonefour]

A) stealing
B) not stealing
C) depends on whether the employee is being paid based on his/her time or his/her production

[brassnuts]

[ QUOTE ]
if i pay you to watch something for eight hours. and you only do it for four but dont tell me and take my money is that stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
if i pay you for eight hours work and assign you a task and you finish sooner but then do something else for your own benefit. is that stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, as long as you didn't specifically assign the person another task to do if he/she finishes early.

[ QUOTE ]
is surfing the net while at work stealing if the boss doesnt know you are doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, as long as you are also getting your assigned work completed.

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
if i pay you to watch something for eight hours. and you only do it for four but dont tell me and take my money is that stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. In this case the eight hours is part of the agreement and I am not providing the service I agreed to provide.

[ QUOTE ]
if i pay you for eight hours work and assign you a task and you finish sooner but then do something else for your own benefit. is that stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

No - in this case you're apparently paying for the completion of a task, not for me to be around for eight hours. Assuming the task is what's integral to the contract, not the eight hours (i.e. it's "reshingle my roof", and not "answer the phones until 5"), then when the task is done, the job's done, regardless of how long it took (as long as it's done satisfactorily, of course).

[ QUOTE ]
is surfing the net while at work stealing if the boss doesnt know you are doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much, technically speaking, although it's on such a small scale that it's hard to even call it "stealing". It's akin to someone looking up from their computer work and staring absentmindedly out a window for a few seconds - yeah, it's technically a waste of company time, but out-and-out theft? I dunno about that.

So I guess it just depends on to what degree you're "stealing" company money. If you're a complete and total internet addict whose productivity drops off noticeably because of it, then yeah. But on the other hand, if you're working on some task and take thirty seconds out to look up on the web what the weather is going to be like that evening, I don't think even the most hardassed of supervisors would chastise you for that.

[[censored]]

The first yes.

The other's I don't think so as long as there was no dishonesty involved.

Example in number 2.

"How long did that take you?"
"8hours"

that would then be stealing IMO.

[wacki]

what brassnuts said. Stealing requires intentional deception. If there isn't any intentional deception then it's not stealing. It's simple as that.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
if i pay you to watch something for eight hours. and you only do it for four but dont tell me and take my money is that stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes sir.

[ QUOTE ]

if i pay you for eight hours work and assign you a task and you finish sooner but then do something else for your own benefit. is that stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

No sir.

[ QUOTE ]
is surfing the net while at work stealing if the boss doesnt know you are doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if I use the boss' credit card to view porn online, sir.

Lawrence.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
Example in number 2.

"How long did that take you?"
"8hours"

that would then be stealing IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I enjoy figuring out how to fix as much stuff as I possibly can on my own vehicle.

[Jakesta]

All mechanics are not thieves, you know.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
All mechanics are not thieves, you know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't really say that - what I said was that many (ie. almost all) will charge people for the "labor" that they didn't even put in...

Example, a good friend of mine is a mechanic for a Ford dealership around here. He has told me many times where he will be assigned a simple task like putting running boards on a new F-150 or something, and he'll basically be told to put it down as at least 1 or 2 more hours than he actually spent on it.

So yeah, not all mechanics are theives, and it depends on your definition of stealing, but since I like to get my hands a little dirty working on the car anyways, it makes sense for me to do my own work instead of getting my wallet plundered over time.

Edit add: judging by some other posters' comments in other threads, i must agree...you ARE less annoying as Dead.

[stankybank]

If I was to drive to your house, found a shortcut that you never knew about, and arrived 5 min earlier than you expected me, is that stealing?

If a couple were sharing a drink, and one of them had a slightly wider straw than the other, but neither of them noticed, is that stealing? What if the one with the wider straw knew it was slightly wider somehow, didn't tell the other, and together they shared a drink. Is that stealing?

If I picked up a rock from the beach, is that stealing? What about if I picked up a penny in front of a bank? At a park? Stealing?

[rmarotti]

God, I hope not because you have described what I have been doing for the last 6 years of employment.

[ripdog]

[ QUOTE ]
Example, a good friend of mine is a mechanic for a Ford dealership around here. He has told me many times where he will be assigned a simple task like putting running boards on a new F-150 or something, and he'll basically be told to put it down as at least 1 or 2 more hours than he actually spent on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a poor example for you to use. Dealerships charge their labor based on flat-rate manuals. A certain job pays 2 hours, if the tech gets it done in less, good for him. Some jobs will pay 6 hours and it will take the tech 8 hours to complete it--sucks for him. Customers who whine about it when a tech is able to beat the flat-rate time are ignorant hypocrites. How much cash has the tech invested in the tools of the trade? I have $10,000 worth of tools in my garage, and my box was woefully deficient. Will that same idiot customer who complains about the job being done in less time be willling to fork out extra cash when the job takes longer to complete? Never. I'm starting to get pissed off, so I'll stop here.

[ZeeJustin]

In my opinion:

None of those are stealing, but that's just an issue of semantics.

All 3 are dishonest and immoral, and that is all that really matters.

[rmarotti]

I am dishonest and immoral /images/graemlins/frown.gif

But I like sashimi!

[Prevaricator]

[ QUOTE ]
All 3 are dishonest and immoral, and that is all that really matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is #2 dishonest and immoral?

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All 3 are dishonest and immoral, and that is all that really matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is #2 dishonest and immoral?

[/ QUOTE ]

The way the question is phrased, I am being paid for 8 hours of work, not an estimation of how much work someone normally does in 8 hours. Basically, it's the same as being paid by the hour based on my understanding of the situation.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

steal Audio pronunciation of "stealing" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stl)
v. stole, (stl) sto·len, (stln) steal·ing, steals
v. tr.

<font color="red"> 1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.</font>
2. To get or effect surreptitiously or artfully: steal a kiss; stole the ball from an opponent.
3. To move, carry, or place surreptitiously.
4. To draw attention unexpectedly in (an entertainment), especially by being the outstanding performer: The magician's assistant stole the show with her comic antics.
5. Baseball. To advance safely to (another base) during the delivery of a pitch, without the aid of a base hit, walk, passed ball, or wild pitch.


[/ QUOTE ]

No...none of your scenarios are stealing.

ZJ points out the crucial distinction that you're most likely trying to get at is an ethical/moral issue ...rather than whether or not actual stealing would be taking place.

Ethically and/or morally the context in which any of the three took place would be *crucial* IMO.

Yugoslav

[fimbulwinter]

summarized:

[ QUOTE ]
shouldn't eating aminals be banned?!?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

what?

please dole out more quality MHpl/NL advice. shouldn't you be posting about the things you've recently killed?

fim

[morgant]

ray, dont be horridly oversimplified and mix the letter of the law(whichever governing body you are referring to) with the spirit of the law. We live in a beauracratic state dont make mountains out of mole hills.

[Brainwalter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Example, a good friend of mine is a mechanic for a Ford dealership around here. He has told me many times where he will be assigned a simple task like putting running boards on a new F-150 or something, and he'll basically be told to put it down as at least 1 or 2 more hours than he actually spent on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a poor example for you to use. Dealerships charge their labor based on flat-rate manuals. A certain job pays 2 hours, if the tech gets it done in less, good for him. Some jobs will pay 6 hours and it will take the tech 8 hours to complete it--sucks for him. Customers who whine about it when a tech is able to beat the flat-rate time are ignorant hypocrites. How much cash has the tech invested in the tools of the trade? I have $10,000 worth of tools in my garage, and my box was woefully deficient. Will that same idiot customer who complains about the job being done in less time be willling to fork out extra cash when the job takes longer to complete? Never. I'm starting to get pissed off, so I'll stop here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if all dealerships use the "flat rate" method you describe, but the way I read it the other poster was talking about something else. That is, the customer is being charged by the hour and intentionally overcharged. The supervisor said something to the effect of "Make sure you charge the customer for more labor than you actually spent."

That's just the way I read his anecdote, your rant notwithstanding.

[morgant]

did your kid just get arrested for shoplifting?

[rmarotti]

[ QUOTE ]
did your kid just get arrested for shoplifting?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahah! you no longer have to kill yourself /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[BadBoyBenny]

If you are working from your office, on your company's network, then they are paying for the bandwidth. When employees surf the Internet for personal entertainment, they are using bandwidth the could slow down business related transmissions. Also, businesses can have variable rates for their internet service based on the amount of traffic they cause. So you are, in effect, taking something of value. Productivity is not the only issue.

[disjunction]

This effect is really really really negligible.

[disjunction]

I saw the thread that spawned this question, and I think a couple of clarifications are in order for those who are unaware.

A lot of computer jobs require obscene amounts of concentration for short bursts of time, which management may or may not be aware of. Time spent surfing the internet replaces time spent at the water cooler, in other people's offices, reading the newspaper, taking smoke breaks, or staring into space. (Anybody who has worked with non-internet savvy people knows that their creativity knows no bounds on avoiding work.) Time spent on the internet does not replace time spent working.

Furthermore, at the modern company, there is an implicit contract. Workers work stupid and obscene hours, any time the workplace needs them, and in return, the workplace gets off their back with the strict rules from 9-5. I know the original question assumed a workplace where this is not the case, but these types of workplaces are becoming fewer and fewer. Both sides occasionally take a step back in horror and gasp at this implicit contract, and would *never* view their side as part of the agreement, but it's just the way the world works.

[Ulysses]

This is really an oversimplification wrt many types of jobs. The higher you go responsibility-wise, the less important hours become and the more important results become. I've always managed my teams based on results and they've always come through for me. Only when people underperform do the things you mention become issues.

[Oski]

[ QUOTE ]
This is really an oversimplification wrt many types of jobs. The higher you go responsibility-wise, the less important hours become and the more important results become. I've always managed my teams based on results and they've always come through for me. Only when people underperform do the things you mention become issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Its more of a performance issue, not a crime. If the employer is not satisfied with the employee's work ethic, habits, work product, etc. he can boot him.

However, example #1 hints at fraud. If you enter an agreement with no intention of performing ... that is fraud. The agreement was that Zee hired someone to watch his sh!t for 8 hours. The guy took the money and booked after 4.

This is why businesses and professionals that pad their hours can be prosecuted: They are charging the client for hours not worked ... therefore, intent is easy to prove because if the work was never done, there was no intent to perform.

[Ulysses]

Right. There's definitely a distinction for things that involve time-based billing.

[RacersEdge]

I think the whole 40 hour week is a little whack. I think it was "established" by an industrial psychologist studying facory workers in the 1930s. It really applies to task-oriented jobs.

[Dominic]

[ QUOTE ]
if i pay you to watch something for eight hours. and you only do it for four but dont tell me and take my money is that stealing.

if i pay you for eight hours work and assign you a task and you finish sooner but then do something else for your own benefit. is that stealing.

is surfing the net while at work stealing if the boss doesnt know you are doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes to all three. But I'm guilty of it.

[CCass]

[ QUOTE ]
This is really an oversimplification wrt many types of jobs. The higher you go responsibility-wise, the less important hours become and the more important results become. I've always managed my teams based on results and they've always come through for me. Only when people underperform do the things you mention become issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put.

I am in Upper Management, and I am definitely paid to do a job, not by the hour. I surf the net at work when time permits (such as right now). I also am on call 24/7, without additional compensation. I do what it takes to get my job done. Sometimes that means 30 hours in a given week, sometimes 60.

[OtisTheMarsupial]

[ QUOTE ]
if i pay you to watch something for eight hours. and you only do it for four but dont tell me and take my money is that stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. and lying.

[ QUOTE ]
if i pay you for eight hours work and assign you a task and you finish sooner but then do something else for your own benefit. is that stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on your employee contract or work environment.
Yes, could be. But if that's the case, you ought to work elsewhere b/c you're too efficient for that place.

[ QUOTE ]
is surfing the net while at work stealing if the boss doesnt know you are doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if boss has a problem with it. Most companies allow some surfing, they just all have different limits on it.

[andyfox]

All 3, as phrased, are stealing. One has contracted to work x hours and doesn't do it, yet takes the money for doing it. That's stealing.

Your second paragraph, however, is a bit ambiguous. If I hire somebody to do a task, and estimate it will take 8 hours, I might pay him based on 8 hours work, with the understanding that once the task is completed, he is free to go and I will still pay for the 8 hours. If, however, I have an hourly employee and I assign him a task to complete, I expect him to come to me when the job is done for another assignment, not to goof off for the remainder of the day.

[andyfox]

You're fired.

[turnipmonster]

I think this question is yes on all 3 counts for any job that is time-based pay (for example if you are billing a client). the 3rd question is probably a no for salaried employees whose compensation is task based.

the flip side of question 3 is, if your boss asks you to work overtime to finish a project without any additional pay, is the company "stealing" from you? if the answer is no, then the answer for question 3 should also be no.

--turnipmonster

[Ray Zee]

if your boss asks you to do it and you do it as an agreement. if he requires it or implies such and you are not salaried and that is part of the package. yes he is stealing from you and is illegal.

anytime someone is paying for 8 hours work they are entitled to that much less legal breaks. if there is a policy written or understood that if you finish your work early you can break than thats part of the aggreement. but if the boss isnt around or doesnt know you are not at your job you are basically stealing time that you are being paid for. if your agreement at work is different of course none of this applies.

[Ray Zee]

if the car dealership has a sign that says 60 dollars an hour rate. and they do a job in two hours but the flat rate manual says it should take 4. if they bill me for 4 they are cheating me. if the sign says we bill at what they flat rate manual says then put that up on the sign and then the bill is that. you dont get to see what is the highest bill after the job and bill the customer that way.

if a person is paid by the hour he should work a full hour and get paid for each hour he worked. there are small breaks in any job. what i was getting at is if the boss doesnt know you spend time surfing or at the watercooler you may be stealing depending on many factors and how much time it is of course. but he is knows then he can let it go or stop it as he sees fit. but if you do not tell him and he isnt aware you must be guilty of some moral kind of offense as you are using time you are paid for to do something for personal benefit.

if a person were making deliveries to my house and told me it was an hour round trip and would charge me as such. then found a shortcut and didnt tell me and still charged the same rate, i think i would be cheated. because the price was based upon that situation. but if i agreed to a flat charge without him putting a time on it and then he found a way to do it more cheaply. good for him and my mistake for not seeing it and bargaining properly.

if you take a rock from a public beach it is stealing. the convention is no one cares that much but you took public property for yourself. in national parks it is stealing and banned. many things are just a matter of degree.

i do think the 40 hour work week is a lousy deal for someone. flex hours and getting the job done makes for better lives for everyone.

[BadBoyBenny]

No, it isn't. People can listen to streaming music and watch streaming video online.