Another KK hand from me...

[moot]

I swear, every time... ACE ACE ACE.

Preflop's a no brainer. On the flop I was kind of lost. Obviously I'm not folding with set and backdoor flush outs (plus there's a chance I might be ahead still). Should I have raised the flop? I really don't see what this accomplishes.

I checked the turn because I was almost ready to let this hand go. I wanted to see the action behind me. Is this way too weak?

I think next time, I'm raising the flop, seeing how many callers behind, and if I don't improve to a set of flush draw on the turn I'm going defensive and potentially looking for a chance to release this hand.

Your thoughts?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $0.5. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 (poster) calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (29.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (17.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

River: (17.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG folds, Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 17.75 BB

EDIT ==

I really REALLY think I should have raised the flop. It just makes the hand play a lot easier, IMO.

[thesharpie]

I don't raise the flop. Any ace will call even if they think they're behind, they're getting the right price on their 3 outer. I play this the same.

Edit: Nice table.

[cold_cash]

After I've 3-bet myself pre-flop I always follow through with the self-cap.

I don't mind calling the flop, but after the way the action went I would bet the turn.

I think the river might play differently had you bet the turn.

I can't really say I love your chances, even with the lack of action, but I'm going to find a way to show this down unless it really hits the fan on the river; the pot is just too big not to.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
I really REALLY think I should have raised the flop. It just makes the hand play a lot easier, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

true

you can't let everyone hang around in this hand - obviously if you get re-raised you know where you stand. i don't think this decision is close

p.s. how do you re-raise yourself pre-flop?

[cold_cash]

How does a flop raise make this easier to play?

The pot is already huge, you can't protect anything, and if you get 3-bet you can't fold.

Add to this the fact that if you do raise the flop and get 3-bet, the pot will probably be so big you'll have to call on the turn also.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

You would have to call the turn either way with how big the pot is, so why are we worried? Raise the flop, while the field is big, bad players play badly, and you'd be surprised how often you are ahead here.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
After I've 3-bet myself pre-flop I always follow through with the self-cap.



[/ QUOTE ]

Party added livestraddles?? thats got to liven up the 2+2 tables

[cmwck]

Raising the flop would be kind of ridiculous since the pot is so fricken' huge. What's going on preflop by the way? How'd you 3-bet yourself?

Betting the turn might make the river easier to play.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
You would have to call the turn either way with how big the pot is, so why are we worried? Raise the flop, while the field is big, bad players play badly, and you'd be surprised how often you are ahead here.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly

you don't want people to catch raggedy 2 pair, chase sets, or catch their runner runner straights cheaply

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
You would have to call the turn either way with how big the pot is, so why are we worried?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is no reason to raise the flop.

I don't understand what it would accomplish. Is it to protect your hand?

Is it for value?

Against 6 opponents and an Ace high flop, with 4 of them left to act behind me, I'm not loving my KK.

What happens if you raise the flop and get 2 cold-callers along with the original bettor? What do you do on the turn?

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
you don't want people to catch raggedy 2 pair, chase sets, or catch their runner runner straights cheaply

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop isn't going to stop this.

Even if you do throw in a raise, everyone behind you will be getting at least 17:1, even when calling two bets.

The pot's too big.

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You would have to call the turn either way with how big the pot is, so why are we worried? Raise the flop, while the field is big, bad players play badly, and you'd be surprised how often you are ahead here.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly

you don't want people to catch raggedy 2 pair, chase sets, or catch their runner runner straights cheaply

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop is just a waste of a bet. If someone was destined to hit their set, 2 pair, or runner-runner, there's nothing you could have done to prevent it in the first place.

Raising to "charge the draws" just causes you to again waste a bet while receiving the worst of it. Your hand isn't good enough to raise 7 players for value. If someone 3-bets, what are you going to do, cap to charge the draws even more?

EDIT: damn, cold_cash keeps beating me to these responses. I swear I'm not copying you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jakesta]

You're a smart dude, Jack Black.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising to "charge the draws" just causes you to again waste a bet while receiving the worst of it. Your hand isn't good enough to raise 7 players for value. If someone 3-bets, what are you going to do, cap to charge the draws even more?

[/ QUOTE ]

so are you just check/calling to the river?

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the turn might make the river easier to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

i really have NO idea why betting this turn is better than raising the flop....you're giving people better odds to catch than a flop raise

[Dead]

No you aren't. Betting doubles on the turn, remember, so you cut down their odds.

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising to "charge the draws" just causes you to again waste a bet while receiving the worst of it. Your hand isn't good enough to raise 7 players for value. If someone 3-bets, what are you going to do, cap to charge the draws even more?

[/ QUOTE ]

so are you just check/calling to the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would probably bet the turn, as it would increase my chances of seeing a showdown without having to call a bet. If I don't bet, I check/call the turn.

If somebody bets on the river, I call depending on who bets and how many overcallers there are. Obviously if it gets raised at any point I fold.

[2+2 wannabe]

there are 2 scenarios here:

1. we are ahead
2. we are behind

if we are ahead we want to bet/raise as much as possible for value (we are not knocking anyone out unless they are stupid - which many party players are)

if we are behind we want to fold as soon as possible - or put in as little money as we can to see showdown

i don't see what waiting for the turn to bet/raise does to help us here - we may as well check/call

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
No you aren't. Betting doubles on the turn, remember, so you cut down their odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising the flop makes everyone call 2SB (or 1BB) cold
betting the turn makes everyone call 1BB cold

pot is bigger on the turn - therefore they get better pot odds to call the turn bet

[Dead]

Wrong.

Four of them have to call two big bets cold on the turn if you raise it then. Everyone except BB.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrong.

Four of them have to call two big bets cold on the turn if you raise it then.

[/ QUOTE ]

if we're raising the turn, yes

we're talking about betting the turn

[Dead]

Now you are being results-oriented. We have no clue about what the turn action will look like when we decide on the flop to wait a stret to raise.

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
there are 2 scenarios here:

1. we are ahead
2. we are behind

if we are ahead we want to bet/raise as much as possible for value (we are not knocking anyone out unless they are stupid - which many party players are)

if we are behind we want to fold as soon as possible - or put in as little money as we can to see showdown

i don't see what waiting for the turn to bet/raise does to help us here - we may as well check/call

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not waiting for the turn to raise in this hand. If someone bet the turn ahead of us, we'd just call and draw to the set. If someone bets behind us, same thing, we'll just call. Since we're going to call a bet on the turn anyway, I would be more inclined to just bet it myself.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
Now you are being results-oriented. We have no clue about what the turn action will look like when we decide on the flop to wait a stret to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree - i wasn't the one bringing up the turn bet (another poster was) - i was arguing against it

if you look up a little higher i mention that i don't really mind waiting for the turn to raise (hate it for betting though)

i'm still trying to figure out what raising the turn accomplishes for us

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there are 2 scenarios here:

1. we are ahead
2. we are behind

if we are ahead we want to bet/raise as much as possible for value (we are not knocking anyone out unless they are stupid - which many party players are)

if we are behind we want to fold as soon as possible - or put in as little money as we can to see showdown

i don't see what waiting for the turn to bet/raise does to help us here - we may as well check/call

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not waiting for the turn to raise in this hand. If someone bet the turn ahead of us, we'd just call and draw to the set. If someone bets behind us, same thing, we'll just call. Since we're going to call a bet on the turn anyway, I would be more inclined to just bet it myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

i apologize - i thought (for whatever reason) that a turn raise was part of the line

what if you get raised on the turn?

[TripleH68]

So let's say it was the BB who 3-bet preflop, then led out on this flop. Anyone consider folding right there or do you take the same line?

Still waiting to find out how hero 3-bet himself...

[Shillx]

You win the most fu[/i]cked up HH post of the day. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jaran]

I really don't understand the turn check, but given that you did, you really need to bet this river.

-Jaran

[Dead]

Why? What will Hero get called with here besides an Ace(or a Queen)?

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
there are 2 scenarios here:

1. we are ahead
2. we are behind

if we are ahead we want to bet/raise as much as possible for value (we are not knocking anyone out unless they are stupid - which many party players are)

if we are behind we want to fold as soon as possible - or put in as little money as we can to see showdown

i don't see what waiting for the turn to bet/raise does to help us here - we may as well check/call

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot about Scenario 3: We don't have any idea whether we're ahead or behind, but would like to showdown our hand if it's possible to do so without investing numerous bets.

[afk]

I think cold_cash is pretty spot on here. Raising this flop doesn't really accomplish anything for you, calling is just fine.

[moot]

I think it screwed up because someone was all-in preflop. That's why it looked like I raised myself.



Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: frank411 ( $20.5 )
Seat 3: Sherman420 ( $10.5 )
Seat 4: Brisco01 ( $5.75 )
Seat 5: belleglade ( $18 )
Seat 6: bones12321 ( $1.5 )
Seat 7: TJRINFL ( $35.75 )
Seat 8: fromm1980 ( $17.5 )
Seat 9: BelowBoard ( $22 )
Seat 10: AlabamaMann ( $4.5 )
Seat 2: lizerei ( $10 )
bones12321 posts small blind [$0.25].
TJRINFL posts big blind [$0.5].
Sherman420: u bet all gnarly then fold
lizerei posts big blind [$0.5].
Brisco01 posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BelowBoard [ Kc Kd ]
fromm1980 calls [$0.5].
&gt;You have options at Table 25376 Table!.
BelowBoard raises [$1].
AlabamaMann calls [$1].
frank411 folds.
&gt;You have options at Table 25415 Table!.
lizerei calls [$0.5].
Sherman420 calls [$1].
Brisco01 folds.
belleglade calls [$1].
bones12321 is all-In [$1.25]
TJRINFL calls [$1].
fromm1980 calls [$1].
BelowBoard raises [$1].
AlabamaMann calls [$1].
lizerei calls [$1].
Sherman420 calls [$1].
belleglade calls [$1].
TJRINFL calls [$0.5].
fromm1980 calls [$0.5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2c, 7h, Ac ]
TJRINFL bets [$0.5].
fromm1980 calls [$0.5].
Sherman420: nice pot
BelowBoard calls [$0.5].
AlabamaMann folds.
lizerei calls [$0.5].
Sherman420 calls [$0.5].
belleglade calls [$0.5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qd ]
TJRINFL checks.
fromm1980 checks.
&gt;You have options at Table 25376 Table!.
BelowBoard checks.
lizerei checks.
Sherman420 checks.
belleglade checks.
** Dealing River ** [ Qs ]
TJRINFL checks.
fromm1980 folds.
BelowBoard checks.
lizerei checks.
Sherman420 checks.
&gt;You have options at Table 25415 Table!.
belleglade checks.
TJRINFL shows [ 9d, 8s ] a pair of queens.
BelowBoard shows [ Kc, Kd ] two pairs, kings and queens.
lizerei doesn't show [ 6s, Th ] a pair of queens.
Sherman420 doesn't show [ Jc, Td ] a pair of queens.
belleglade shows [ 2d, Ah ] two pairs, aces and queens.
bones12321 shows [ 6c, Qc ] three of a kind, queens.
belleglade wins $6.5 from side pot #1 with two pairs, aces and queens.
bones12321 wins $11.75 from the main pot with three of a kind, queens.
frank411 has left the table.

[dvashun]

**Grunching**

First off, I must be missing something preflop because it looks like you raise yourself with the 3-bet. Then on the flop I definite raise to find out where I am. From there this hand becomes much easier, with this many players it is difficult to bet the turn or river because they may be hanging around w/A-weak kicker. The flop raise drives out any random backdoor hand plus lets you know where BB is. The way the hand looks to me is BB bet a flush draw and missed or had AQ and tried for a c/r twice and missed both times. However, I would think AQ would raise preflop. Is that the missing info?

[kiemo]

Pots to big to fold and nobody with an Ace is going away. You played the hand fine.

[Disconnected]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG calls, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 (poster) calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
After I've 3-bet myself pre-flop I always follow through with the self-cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, I'd raise myself, but then fold to my 3-bet. /images/graemlins/grin.gif