Love em' or hate em'? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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FreakDaddy

06-02-2005, 12:55 AM

Hand 1
No read, just posted.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($77.4)
UTG ($50)
UTG+1 ($193.38)
UTG+2 ($59.3)
MP1 ($102.55)
MP2 ($14.38)
MP3 ($43.75)
Hero ($50)
Button ($56.5)
SB ($66.2)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.5. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
3 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero (poster) checks, Button calls $0.50, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($2.25) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $1.5, Button calls $1.50, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: ($5.25) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $3, Button calls $3.

River: ($11.25) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $5, Button folds.

Final Pot: $16.25

Hand 2
Facing two look-up artist. One is semi-lag and the other is a gambler, but not a stupid gambler.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($48.4)
SB ($26.15)
Hero ($52.65)
UTG ($22.7)
UTG+1 ($32.25)
MP1 ($43)
MP2 ($10.5)
MP3 ($48.25)
CO ($58.95)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
6 folds, Button raises to $1.5, SB (poster) calls $1.25, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($4.50) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, Button calls $3, SB calls $3.

Turn: ($13.50) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4, Button folds, SB folds.

Final Pot: $17.50

Hand 3
Villian is decently solid. I feel I buthcered this one. I should have bet the turn. I also didn't want to price him in on the river for I felt I had a better chance of getting called by a K or Q with a stronger river bet, rather than a 1/3 value bet. I should have probably potted it here. Comments?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($53.5)
Hero ($49.5)
UTG ($54.95)
UTG+1 ($76.65)
UTG+2 ($35.14)
MP1 ($47.5)
MP2 ($62.15)
MP3 ($139.13)
CO ($95.45)
Button ($44.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.50, 3 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: ($1.75) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $1, MP3 folds, Hero raises to $4, UTG+2 raises to $7, Hero calls $3.

Turn: ($15.75) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks.

River: ($15.75) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $10, UTG+2 folds.

Final Pot: $25.75

rikz

06-02-2005, 01:07 AM

Hand 1-
Hate it. I'd fold preflop. You are also semi-bluffing to the non-nut flush. One of your opponents could be drawing to the A-high flush causing you to lose pretty big if you "hit" one of your outs on the turn or river.

Hand 2-
That's pretty gutsy. I wouldn't do it, but I like it. You must have had a pretty good read. The pot stayed manageable, and your bet on the scary turn was convincingly large enough to fold out non-Qs, but small enough to make it look like you WANTED a caller because you "had" the Q yourself (or better). Nice play.

3- Looks OK to me.

DoubleDown

06-02-2005, 01:14 AM

what do you think villain had in Hand 3?

i saw you checked the turn. what were you planning to do on the turn? did that 2nd ten slow you down?

when i was reading thru the hand I thought you had lost once the 2nd T paired the board, as I put villain on 33 or 44.

but after seeing the results i'd put villain on an overpair that missed a preflop check/raise.

FreakDaddy

06-02-2005, 01:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1-
Hate it. I'd fold preflop. You are also semi-bluffing to the non-nut flush. One of your opponents could be drawing to the A-high flush causing you to lose pretty big if you "hit" one of your outs on the turn or river.

Hand 2-
That's pretty gutsy. I wouldn't do it, but I like it. You must have had a pretty good read. The pot stayed manageable, and your bet on the scary turn was convincingly large enough to fold out non-Qs, but small enough to make it look like you WANTED a caller because you "had" the Q yourself (or better). Nice play.

3- Looks OK to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted in the first hand. Should I still fold? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

wtfsvi

06-02-2005, 01:19 AM

I think it's incredible that they folded to that weak bet in hand two. I can't imagine you expected them to. (So why did you make it?)

Hand 1: I post in the CO too, but every time I get dealt Q2o I forget why I do that. I would check the turn anyway, since you have no reads. I don't know about the river bet if he checks behind. Can't see him folding anything that beats you for a half pot bet, except a three (unlikly) or Ad2. Check calling is probably better. I would just check fold with no reads.

Hand 3: You should lead the turn and fold to a push I guess, but chances are you won't get anything more out of villain anyway. $10 is fine size.

FreakDaddy

06-02-2005, 01:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what do you think villain had in Hand 3?

i saw you checked the turn. what were you planning to do on the turn? did that 2nd ten slow you down?

when i was reading thru the hand I thought you had lost once the 2nd T paired the board, as I put villain on 33 or 44.

but after seeing the results i'd put villain on an overpair that missed a preflop check/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

My inital read was over cards, or I was hoping K10, A10. I checked the turn because I was raised and called and was giving up control of the hand to the aggressor hoping he would lead. He was smart enough not to though and I lost him. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

FreakDaddy

06-02-2005, 01:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's incredible that they folded to that weak bet in hand two. I can't imagine you expected them to. (So why did you make it?)

Hand 1: I post in the CO too, but every time I get dealt Q2o I forget why I do that. I would check the turn anyway, since you have no reads. I don't know about the river bet if he checks behind. Can't see him folding anything that beats you for a half pot bet, except a three (unlikly) or Ad2. Check calling is probably better. I would just check fold with no reads.

Hand 3: You should lead the turn and fold to a push I guess, but chances are you won't get anything more out of villain anyway. $10 is fine size.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually hand 2 I knew they would fold. Like I said, they were look-up artist and and anything other then that bet I think may have been called. That's actually the only hand I really like. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hand 1 I'm just doing your basic leading out into a big field with no reads and seeing what happens. Doesn't everyone do that? /images/graemlins/smile.gif I felt like if I stayed strong I had a decent chance of taking down the pot. It was probably mostly optimism on my part.

Hand 3, why would I fold to a push? Are you going to give villian that much credit for a set/made boat? Why? Because he'd push against a likely flush? Just curious....

rikz

06-02-2005, 01:29 AM

Ugh. Maybe I should have read that more closely.

In that case, the flop bet might have been more convincing with just .5 more at $2, just because it looks stronger to me than $1.25 in a $2.25 pot.

The turn I'm not so sure about. Would you have still won if you check the turn and bet the river? I just can't see what he called you with on the turn that he folded to on the river unless he really was drawing to the A-high flush with AdXo.

As it worked out, you applied constant, controlled, steady pressure on all streets with the intention of folding (I assume) to a raise at any point. As long as you know that you are playing with fire if the flush DOES hit, I guess it's OK. I'm still queesy about semi-bluffing too much to a non-nut flush.

What do you think he had? KJo with Jd? 99 with 9d? QJo with Jd? AJo or Axo (no pair) with Ad?

wtfsvi

06-02-2005, 01:34 AM

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />
Actually hand 2 I knew they would fold. Like I said, they were look-up artist..

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, look-up artists. English is not my first language, so I didn't get that. Sorry /images/graemlins/smirk.gif I still think the bet is too weak, but if your read is that they will fold, it's no problem of course.

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />
Hand 3, why would I fold to a push? Are you going to give villian that much credit for a set/made boat? Why? Because he'd push against a likely flush? Just curious....

[/ QUOTE ]
Because you said he was solid. His min-reraise contradicts that though. If he doesn't have 56 that is, then it could be an ok play if he knew you would check the turn to him with anything.

rikz

06-02-2005, 01:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3, why would I fold to a push? Are you going to give villian that much credit for a set/made boat? Why? Because he'd push against a likely flush? Just curious....

[/ QUOTE ]

I've lost a lot of money with a nut-flush on a paired board (so it wasn't really the nuts, now was it).

I almost wrote on the top of my monitor, "Never raise all-in with a flush on a paired board." And I'd rather raise than call, so I wouldn't call without a great read on the raiser, either.

FreakDaddy

06-02-2005, 01:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh. Maybe I should have read that more closely.

In that case, the flop bet might have been more convincing with just .5 more at $2, just because it looks stronger to me than $1.25 in a $2.25 pot.

The turn I'm not so sure about. Would you have still won if you check the turn and bet the river? I just can't see what he called you with on the turn that he folded to on the river unless he really was drawing to the A-high flush with AdXo.

As it worked out, you applied constant, controlled, steady pressure on all streets with the intention of folding (I assume) to a raise at any point. As long as you know that you are playing with fire if the flush DOES hit, I guess it's OK. I'm still queesy about semi-bluffing too much to a non-nut flush.

What do you think he had? KJo with Jd? 99 with 9d? QJo with Jd? AJo or Axo (no pair) with Ad?

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Yes, the flop bet. Yes, at this level(50NL) you're probably correct. The underbet on the board probably looks weak instead of strong.

I was planing on staying aggresive and folding to a raise. If I checked the turn and bet the river I more than likely would have been called. I was placing villian on Nut flush draw, but I sincerly had almost no read since I just sat down at the table. I was observing the table for a few minutes, but I was playing other tables, so I had nothing to go on. I just got lucky, but I have found that consistent pressure will pay off most of the time. I did get lucky though.

Thanks for your comments.

FreakDaddy

06-02-2005, 01:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Ah, look-up artists. English is not my first language, so I didn't get that. Sorry /images/graemlins/smirk.gif I still think the bet is too weak, but if your read is that they will fold, it's no problem of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem, my English teacher thought that english was my second language... not because it is, but because my english sucks. Go figure. /images/graemlins/wink.gif I should correct myself. I didn't 'know' they we're going to fold, but I suspected that it was highly likely. They were the type of players that would stick in a pot because they think everyone is trying to bluff them out of every pot so they want to make sure the player really has 'the goods'.
[ QUOTE ]

Because you said he was solid. His min-reraise contradicts that though. If he doesn't have 56 that is, then it could be an ok play if he knew you would check the turn to him with anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does his mini-raise contradict that exactely. You feel he should have bet more? Explain.

wtfsvi

06-02-2005, 08:56 AM

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />
How does his mini-raise contradict that exactely. You feel he should have bet more? Explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Min-raises are generally not a tool a solid player should use much. They tell your oponent too much about the hand you're holding without making him pay for the information. There are situations where the min-raise can be useful if the conditions are right though: To find out where you are cheaply, as part of a plan to control the pot size when you're in position or to buy a free card when you're in position, and when you hold a monster and the the villain will be pot commited anyway after calling the min-raise.

Problem is, if you only use the min-raise for the above mentioned purpouses, an observant player with a lot of hands on you (or a good player who knows your "type") will always know how to correctly play against your min-raises.(If you know that he knows and can use that against him, we're about to add levels of thinking. Then the min-raise gains other uses obviously.)

Besides, min-raises makes it look like you have no balls. Like min-betting. Man that's annoying! If was ever to run a casino there would be a rule saying you can't min bet into a crowd. God damn that upsets me. I'm easy to tilt. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif