Bubble, at what point do I call this?

[1C5]

If I fold I will have 580 chips.
At what point (#of chips compared to blinds) do you call with K9o?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t2585)
SB (t1075)
Hero (t880)
UTG (t1660)
MP (t1800)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t1300</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero ?

[curtains]

I call here for sure. I think folding is terrible.

[1C5]

Good!!

I did call but wasn't sure. What is the pint for you that you fold this (in # of chips)?

[curtains]

Not sure, but I know that this is very very easy. I'd call even if I had 700 left over .... that much I know. Not sure where my cutoff is...

[RobGW]

I'd call right now. If you win you've got 1600 and a good shot at some money. If you fold you'll have no fold equity. Your opponents will probably tighten up since you are about to bust so you'll be forced to catch a hand, gamble with any 2, or get blinded out.

[1C5]

Ok thx, and what about with a weaker hand? 57o, 230, T5o, etc.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok thx, and what about with a weaker hand? 57o, 230, T5o, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you should fold 32o (but could be wrong, I havent done the math).....I would call with something like T8o however.

Ok my advice was maybe too loose...eastbays program says T8o is a fold against most people....which somewhat surprises me.

[wuwei]

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I call here for sure. I think folding is terrible.

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This is why I promptly got up and left when Curtains sat down directly to my left on two tables at once last week.

[Newt_Buggs]

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Ok thx, and what about with a weaker hand? 57o, 230, T5o, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you should fold 32o (but could be wrong, I havent done the math).....I would call with something like T8o however.

Ok my advice was maybe too loose...eastbays program says T8o is a fold against most people....which somewhat surprises me.

[/ QUOTE ]
my problem with these situations is that I lose all of my FE once I fold which ICM doesn't account for. Its likely that if I fold this I will be forced to make a push in a couple of hands that is also -EV, but if I call and double up I will put myself in future situations that are +EV steals.

[curtains]

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Ok thx, and what about with a weaker hand? 57o, 230, T5o, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you should fold 32o (but could be wrong, I havent done the math).....I would call with something like T8o however.

Ok my advice was maybe too loose...eastbays program says T8o is a fold against most people....which somewhat surprises me.

[/ QUOTE ]
my problem with these situations is that I lose all of my FE once I fold which ICM doesn't account for. Its likely that if I fold this I will be forced to make a push in a couple of hands that is also -EV, but if I call and double up I will put myself in future situations that are +EV steals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is why I call a lot, especially if it's close and you never know exactly what their pushing range is anyway.

[EasilyFound]

Does the analysis in this thread apply mostly to the higher buy-ins? In other words, is the "avg" $11 SNG player going to be pushing with a wide range of hands here? Or as wide a range of hands as at the upper levels, if that is where most of the posters on this thread play?

That is one thing I am always wonder about when I read a thread here. How much does the analysis differ depending on the buy-in. Or, for this thread, where OP is low on chips, is the "end play" pretty much the same no matter what the buy-in because you are short-stacked and need to make a move sooner or later.

Thanks.

[curtains]

It definitely does matter, however my advice on 2+2 is generally theoretical, meaning that unless specific knowledge of the opponent is given, I will assume they are normal and then base my answer on that.

Of course while playing you can sometimes adjust your decisions accordingly based on how you feel your opponent's are playing (although I find that I do this rarely, although it definitely does happen).

[kyro]

Call me dumb, but dumb me calls.

You win this &gt;50% I'm almost positive. It's a perfect position for button to steal. You have almost no chips left and a "fairly" decent hand.

[Voltron87]

call... i call with any hand of any redeeming value, I know i am calling mostly any headsup allin before the cards are dealt, so when i see the king i am actually happy.

30% of you stack is getting blinded off, think of it that way. and next hand youre in the SB.

[Scuba Chuck]

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I call here for sure. I think folding is terrible.


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This is why I promptly got up and left when Curtains sat down directly to my left on two tables at once last week.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I think you've got him right where you want him. He's always making marginally bad decisions. You just need to adjust for this. That being said, I tend to avoid other two-ers at tables.

BTW, I don't know about calling with 700 remaining afterwards. Curtains, you've got to be losing huge ROI points don't you think?

[wuwei]

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This is why I promptly got up and left when Curtains sat down directly to my left on two tables at once last week.

[/ QUOTE ]

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Really? I think you've got him right where you want him. He's always making marginally bad decisions. You just need to adjust for this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's the thing... I'd have to adjust by strongly tightening up my range of stealing hands - and that's not an adjustment I like to make. He's one of the few 2+2ers for whom this is true... PVS too, because of his spite call fetish /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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BTW, I don't know about calling with 700 remaining afterwards. Curtains, you've got to be losing huge ROI points don't you think?

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Hero has 580 remaining after he folds, and is facing 150 in the SB on the next hand. We're getting over 2:1 on the last of our chips, unless I think he's pushing a tight range of hands here I'm calling.

[curtains]

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I call here for sure. I think folding is terrible.


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This is why I promptly got up and left when Curtains sat down directly to my left on two tables at once last week.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I think you've got him right where you want him. He's always making marginally bad decisions. You just need to adjust for this. That being said, I tend to avoid other two-ers at tables.

BTW, I don't know about calling with 700 remaining afterwards. Curtains, you've got to be losing huge ROI points don't you think?

[/ QUOTE ]


I might fold with 700 remaining sometimes, it would depend on the situation though. This is a situation where a lot of experienced players would push over 50% of hands on button, or maybe any 2. (If I had 700 remaining that is, because now they believe there is much more fold equity).

Against someone like this if you fold they are going to just crush you in the long run. Fortunately for me I play like this, and players like you fold everything in the BB, whereas when you do the same with any 2 cards or a wide assortment, I will call you.

[vinyard]

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I call here for sure. I think folding is terrible.

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[curtains]

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Really? I think you've got him right where you want him. He's always making marginally bad decisions. You just need to adjust for this. That being said, I tend to avoid other two-ers at tables.

BTW, I don't know about calling with 700 remaining afterwards. Curtains, you've got to be losing huge ROI points don't you think?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah according to you all they have to do to adjust to my poor play is simply raise less because of my looser calling standards. Damn it's a real shame that my less than correct play would encourage someone to do that, I need to go back to making "good" decisions so that people can safely push with any 2 on me and know that I will proudly fold when it's obviously +EV to call against an any 2 raise or anything close to it.

It's not like I'm playing against children where I can routinely get away with making such folds with such a large % of my stack posted in the BB.