End Game

[rsq]

I am having issues at the end of 1 table tourneys.

What are thoughts on blind stealing and then having to defend against all-ins (say of a level approx 50% of your chip stack or less) with the following hands:

A6 to A9 unsuited

J/10

10/9 suited or unsuited


I am either making really bad decision attackign with these hands, or just really bad luck.

I made the final 4, four times in a row at a $20 single table and was crippled with the above hands.


thx

[dfscott]

Given good position (and even not, depending on my stack and who I'm pushing into), I'll happily steal with these hands. However, I would hardly ever defend with them unless I'm getting fantastic odds.

[rsq]

so if someone comes back at you, on a steal you would fold those hands - correct?

[dfscott]

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so if someone comes back at you, on a steal you would fold those hands - correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play Party, so by the time I'm stealing with hands like these, I'm all-in, so folding is not an option.

[mcpherzen]

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so if someone comes back at you, on a steal you would fold those hands - correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a horrible way to play the late game of a sit-n-go (raise and fold to an all-in). You really don't want to ever have to do this...there just aren't enough chips in everyone's stack relative to the blinds late in the game. If you're going to play garbage like the above-mentioned hands, you want to be pushing all-in on a steal and putting your opponent to the decision for all his chips. Pick your spots and opposition well. But you should be folding these hands if you have more than 8-13 BB's (under most circumstances).

--Zen

[rsq]

Thx zen

In general, what min hands would you consider for stealing via all-ins late in the game?

[The Yugoslavian]

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so if someone comes back at you, on a steal you would fold those hands - correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a horrible way to play the late game of a sit-n-go (raise and fold to an all-in). You really don't want to ever have to do this...there just aren't enough chips in everyone's stack relative to the blinds late in the game. If you're going to play garbage like the above-mentioned hands, you want to be pushing all-in on a steal and putting your opponent to the decision for all his chips. Pick your spots and opposition well. But you should be folding these hands if you have more than 8-13 BB's (under most circumstances).

--Zen

[/ QUOTE ]

There are like 12 multitabling $55ers I played with over the weekend who I want to tell this to....except it'd hurt my already pitiful ROI, /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

One of them just *always* min raised from SB,btn,CO if 5 handed or less....and then called most of the time with the mediocre hands that he/she had. This is the same one who called my allin for 9.5/10 of his/her stack with something like Q8o on the bubble when I pushed the SB with a v v v short UTG. I can't believe people can multitable like this and not go broke immediately.

Yugoslav

[lastchance]

I would consider any hand. What is just as important is the number of active players left, their calling standards, your stack, and their stack. A combination of these gives you your range of pushing hands.

For example, folded to me in the SB with 4x BB, I'm inclined to push any 2.

[mcpherzen]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, what min hands would you consider for stealing via all-ins late in the game?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you are truly stealing, your cards really don't matter so much. They key consideration is the situation and whether or not you have a little or a lot of folding equity. This analysis gets awful complex in a hurry though: how big is your stack?, what are the blinds?, how many players are left to act behind you?, what are their calling standards?, how big are their stacks?, when will the blinds go up again?, who's in the big blind?, how many chips does he have?, if I do get called, what am I likely facing?, etc., etc.

Having said all that, however, your cards DO still matter, and, IMHO, here's the true jem to think about: While you'd LIKE to be leading when you push and get called, it is much more important that you strive to NOT be way behind if you get called. Reread that and make sure you understand it.

The weak ace is the great example of this. If you push with A-5, for example, and get called, you are not going to like your position. Almost all the time, you will either be (a) 2-1 behind because you got called by a pair between A and 5, (b) 3-1 behind because you got called by a bigger A, or (c) 3-2 ahead (or worse) because you got called by two unpaired cards between A and 5. This is NOT where you want to be.

Now consider pushing with Q-J. You're only way behind AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AQ, AJ, KQ, and KJ, and, assuming there aren't too many opponents to act behind you, it isn't very likely an opponent has one of these hands. You'll be a slight dog to all underpairs and all A-x and K-x where x is 10 or lower. You'll be ahead of all other hands except AK, which you trail by slightly less than 2-1. Assuming you had a decent amount of folding equity before you made the push (i.e. there was a pretty good chance all folded to you and you stole the blinds), THIS (or better) is the kind of hand you want to be pushing with while stealing.

--Z

[The Yugoslavian]

Zen....you push A5 not b/c you won't be way behind when called but b/c one fewer ace is available in the deck for your opponent(s) to have...doesn't matter that when called it's way behind ....if you're assuming their calling range is predominantly aces (which you would be to be worried about being behind so frequently when called), you know your FE is even higher.

So no....I'd rather push A5 than QJ b/c it maximizes my FE. If I'm pushing into a ton of people (which I have to do in certain situations) then sometimes I'd rather have QJ. But......I am fairly confident that in most of the endgame scenarios we'd talk about I'd rather push A2 than QJ.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yugoslav

[treeofwisdom7]

just push A5 dont worry about it in the next 100 games.. what you should worry about is what your calling all ins with.. make sure its not A5.

holla back

[The Yugoslavian]

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just push A5 dont worry about it in the next 100 games.. what you should worry about is what your calling all ins with.. make sure its not A5.

holla back

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks....this was very insightful and helpful.

I expect to see a 5% gain in my ROI.

Yugoslav
Do you even know what Zen is discussing???

[valenzuela]

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just push A5 dont worry about it in the next 100 games.. what you should worry about is what your calling all ins with.. make sure its not A5.

holla back

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks....this was very insightful and helpful.

I expect to see a 5% gain in my ROI.

Yugoslav
Do you even know what Zen is discussing???

[/ QUOTE ]

is it so hard to put faces in ur sarcastic posts /images/graemlins/mad.gif, I dont know what is this thread about, is someone calling all-ins with A5 on the bubble. i lack reading comprehension skills in enlgish( seriously)

[The Yugoslavian]

Zen is trying to help the OP by discussing general late game theory as it relates to the hands one is holding.

His point is that, generally speaking, other factors (stack sizes/configurations, blind sizes, position) are more important than what cards you have.

He then goes on to point out, in fact, that some hands may gain or lose value when pushing mainly for FE purposes. That A5 isn't a very good hand b/c when it is called, you rate to be way behind (as many players like to call with high aces). He'd rather push with QJ so that if called he will be behind, but almost never by that much.

My contention is, that if you push with Ax, that means there are only 3 aces in the deck left to make up the hands of the opponent(s) acting behind you. This will have an immediate impact on your FE (as there are fewer Ax hands they can have to call you with). Also, if called by any other non pair hand, Ax rates to be slightly ahead (rather than slightly behind like QJ).

I have no idea how what treeofwisdom said has anything to do with what Zen is very generously documenting for everyone, and I am counterpointing.

My response to treeofwisdom was 100% sarcastic.

Does this help?

Yugoslav

[valenzuela]

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Does this help?

[/ QUOTE ]
yes /images/graemlins/smile.gif, ill take A5 any day.

[rsq]

nice, thx