River Checkraise?

[DavidC]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB

---

Villain is TPA after like 100 hands.

Figure a checkraise is in order here?

The thing that made me a little nervous about this was that it was a bit of a ragged flop, and for some reason I thought that villain was TPP.

But assuming I'd realized that villain was TPA, would checkraising this river be wise?

Obviously if villain was a particularly good player or particularly respectful of me, betting out would be better, because he's probably not going to put me on calling down with a crappy hand, and there's no value for him in betting into a busted draw.

--Dave.

[MrWookie47]

I probably would have just bet out the river.

[VBM]

i dont' think you have enough information to check-raise this river. i don't think the flop check-raise was for a flush draw, since he bets the turn. a TPTK type hand? possibly. but could also be 2 pair or a poorly played set.

i'm w/ MrWookie; bet. 9A calls, and 2 pair+ raises...

[PuckNPoker]

Maybe im laggy but I'd 3 bet the flop and go from there, we are ahead of TP at the moment and HU. If you really fear two pair (im with the poster who say there isnt enough info for that) or better then there is no way you check raise the river.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe im laggy but I'd 3 bet the flop and go from there, we are ahead of TP at the moment and HU. If you really fear two pair (im with the poster who say there isnt enough info for that) or better then there is no way you check raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Queen High is way ahead on the flop? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[PuckNPoker]

Not way ahead, ahead.

2 overcards, BSD, FD, Is ahead of TPTK or any pair unless you are reverse dominated. Yes.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Not way ahead, ahead.

2 overcards, BSD, FD, Is ahead of TPTK or any pair unless you are reverse dominated. Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think once it's HU then a 3-bet is a very thin equity raise if any. It also just looks hugely suspicious when you check the turn UI.

[bottomset]

is he passive enough preflop to check TT-QQ(KKyuck) in the BB, you aren't a fav against TT, or JJ and a decent dog against QQ

if he does, then a flop 3bet looks much worse

its prob still pretty thin value, and prob costs you a bet on the turn or river if you hit .. not sure its worth it

[PuckNPoker]

Lots of cards help us though, if a K, 8,6 T,Q,J and any diamond help us on the turn. Depending on his reaction to my 3 bet and if any of those cards fell i'd bet the turn on a semi-bluff. You might be able to make a x7 lay down.

Fine, I'm laggy.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
Not way ahead, ahead.

2 overcards, BSD, FD, Is ahead of TPTK or any pair unless you are reverse dominated. Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, no.

Holdem Hi: 500000 sampled boards containing 9d 3d 7h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qd Td 236773 47.35 258647 51.73 4580 0.92 0.478
Tc 9c 258647 51.73 236773 47.35 4580 0.92 0.522

[topspin]

I play the same except I'd lead the river and call a raise.

[PuckNPoker]

His PFR% would narrow that down, people usually raise all those hands especially in a small limped field.

You guys certainly are reading a lot into 1 flop raise with no other info. He's agressive post flop and I can see raising to shut out the field with a lot of hands here. But that is only my opinion, I will take what you guys have to say to heart and think about it.

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not way ahead, ahead.

2 overcards, BSD, FD, Is ahead of TPTK or any pair unless you are reverse dominated. Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, no.

Holdem Hi: 500000 sampled boards containing 9d 3d 7h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qd Td 236773 47.35 258647 51.73 4580 0.92 0.478
Tc 9c 258647 51.73 236773 47.35 4580 0.92 0.522

[/ QUOTE ]

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
His PFR% would narrow that down, people usually raise all those hands especially in a small limped field.

You guys certainly are reading a lot into 1 flop raise with no other info. He's agressive post flop and I can see raising to shut out the field with a lot of hands here. But that is only my opinion, I will take what you guys have to say to heart and think about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he always raises the med pairs preflop down to 99, then the flop 3bet looks much better ... but many TPA are passive with 99-JJ, sometimes QQ

but you are only a slight favorite if he has 9x or 7x ... and about 2/1 dog against 2pair

say his range is 99-QQ: 10%, 2pair/better: 25%, toppair or worse:65%

I don't know the exact ratio, but that seems reasonable

you don't have an equity edge .. you might have some folding equity though, not I don't think its enough to overcome the equity you are behind

but i think you kill your big street action more by 3betting right now, plus if you do miss the FD, and don't improve the BDstraight draw .. you are a 2+/1 dog on the turn .. betting out isn't really good .. checking looks really odd(though it might get you a free card)

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Not way ahead, ahead.

2 overcards, BSD, FD, Is ahead of TPTK or any pair unless you are reverse dominated. Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh... thanks? I just 'stoved' it, and holy [censored]. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not way ahead, ahead.

2 overcards, BSD, FD, Is ahead of TPTK or any pair unless you are reverse dominated. Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, no.

Holdem Hi: 500000 sampled boards containing 9d 3d 7h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qd Td 236773 47.35 258647 51.73 4580 0.92 0.478
Tc 9c 258647 51.73 236773 47.35 4580 0.92 0.522

[/ QUOTE ]

Notice that the first guy said isn't "reverse dominated" (the relationship between t9 and qt on this board.

Just so you're aware.

--Dave.

I don't like the flop bet or the turn call when the board pairs. You are now drawing to a flush that may no longer be good even if you hit What do you think a TPA is raising on a ragged flop like this one? A flush draw? It looks like he flopped a set to me. Easy turn check/fold.

And why are you even betting the flop anyway? You don't have a flush yet and you'll only hit it 35% of the time anyway. Just try to make it as cheaply as possible. Don't bet and risk the villian raising you here. You lost 2.5 more big bets than you had to on this hand.

Save those bets for the next hand. There is always a next hand.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop bet or the turn call when the board pairs. You are now drawing to a flush that may no longer be good even if you hit What do you think a TPA is raising on a ragged flop like this one? A flush draw? It looks like he flopped a set to me. Easy turn check/fold.

And why are you even betting the flop anyway? You don't have a flush yet and you'll only hit it 35% of the time anyway. Just try to make it as cheaply as possible. Don't bet and risk the villian raising you here. You lost 2.5 more big bets than you had to on this hand.

Save those bets for the next hand. There is always a next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bisonbison, did you just make a gimmick account? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

(awesome, bro!)

If I told you I won, what would you say? /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]

if he always raises the med pairs preflop down to 99, then the flop 3bet looks much better ... but many TPA are passive with 99-JJ, sometimes QQ

[/ QUOTE ]

I just have a really hard time giving the BB credit for that much of a hand (again PFR% would tell me a lot), this is a random hand with no VPIP until the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
say his range is 99-QQ: 10%, 2pair/better: 25%, toppair or worse:65%

I don't know the exact ratio, but that seems reasonable

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say its about 80% TP or worse and 20% Two pair or better. Im not sure how to calculate folding equity into the equation, it would really depend on the villian. But your range is reasonable, I just give less credit to the BB. Probably I've played Party too much lol.

[Redd]

I'd like to hear some more opinions on the river, mostly since I'd check-raise it.

I think that putting an aggressive (postflop) player on 2 pair or better for raising the flop and betting the turn is a little weak. IMO there's a good chance we're ahead here, so the real choice is between betting and check-raising; since the queen is seems fairly safe to him, there's a good chance he'll lead to I like a check-raise.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop bet or the turn call when the board pairs. You are now drawing to a flush that may no longer be good even if you hit What do you think a TPA is raising on a ragged flop like this one? A flush draw? It looks like he flopped a set to me. Easy turn check/fold.

And why are you even betting the flop anyway? You don't have a flush yet and you'll only hit it 35% of the time anyway. Just try to make it as cheaply as possible. Don't bet and risk the villian raising you here. You lost 2.5 more big bets than you had to on this hand.

Save those bets for the next hand. There is always a next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You remind me of a NickRegino (to whoever knows that guy).

Who says we need a flush to win this hand? 2 overs, backdoor straight, flush draw...this is the easiest flop bet ever.

Also, he could have been "slowplaying" a large PP (JJ-AA). We are drawing live VERY often here. I think folding is dumb.

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that putting an aggressive (postflop) player on 2 pair or better for raising the flop and betting the turn is a little weak. IMO there's a good chance we're ahead here, so the real choice is between betting and check-raising; since the queen is seems fairly safe to him, there's a good chance he'll lead to I like a check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but I think the way it was played it is an pretty undefined hand so check raising is pretty risky. If the guy has a weak card or busted draw he will probably lay it down, and any better hand is 3 betting you. But my river agression is pretty low (1.94).

[PuckNPoker]

Just a FYI, that is very much a joke post you are replying too.

[PuckNPoker]

Since this one seems to be dying, I was just wondering what happened in the end.

[diebitter]

I would! He's not gonna lay down his hands, so you'll make a bit more, I reckon.

He's either got trips (7s or 3s) (but I'd put this as not too likely), a busted flush draw, or more likely 2 pair under yours (he checked the BB, so could easily be holding 97/73/93) - he may even be holding just 99 - He's aggy postflop, and you've been passive, so he's betting into you, of course - no reason not to.

He bet at the end cos (though the queen would have drawn him up) that's what he's been doing, and I say make him pay. Especially so if he bet the flop and turn fast, and then the river a lot slower!

What did he have, btw?

[PJM1206]

I think the hands is at best mariginal. Although the odds are there (barely) for playing the hand it is such a small pot I dont even think it is worth playing. Think you put too much stalk in your read of the player and trying to get fancy probably does you more harm than good for such a small pot. If this was the only pot I was going to play maybe that would be different but...... It's not

[krishanleong]

I cr this river everytime. Leading is a waste.

Krishan

[mlb3zr]

I like the c/r. The board paired so if he's raising the flop with a BB special two pair, you've counterfeited it. And if he's aggressive postflop, he'll bet his nines HU, even though the Q fell.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Since this one seems to be dying, I was just wondering what happened in the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

He checked through the preflop with A9s clubs and I win.