Winning at Wynn

[goofball]

15/30 at Wynn last night, the game is decent but I've been brutalizing it. I'm up probably 1k in the last two orbits when the following hand comes up.

PF raiser is decent but mildly on tilt from my hitting a gutshot on him a few hands ago. He thinks I'm psychic and lucky. The SB just say at the table and I can say very little abotu him. I'd been checkraising a ton of flops lately and people had noticed and were beginning to ignore them, and most of the players had made the subtle changes people tend to make against you when you're on a rush(i.e. more passiveness, more folding when they know their beat, very few shots at you etc).

So I was in the BB with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

An MP player who isn't really related to the hand limped, the PF raiser who was in the CO raised, the SB called and I called.

The flop was 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB checked, I checked, limper checked planning to fold, PF raiser bet, SB called, I called, limper folded.

turn was an A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checked, I bet.

[highlife]

can't really say anything about this hand except...well played.

i like the donkbet better than a checkraise on the turn, both players could fold better hands here, if they don't you have enough outs to back up the semibluff.

[YoureToast]

I think its awful. I do the opposite on each postflop round.
I probably donkbet the flop in the hopes of getting limper and SB outta there.
Turn is dependent on what happened after I donkbet the flop.
If I played the flop like you, I checkfold the turn unless I have specific odds to hit my gutshot or set.

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]
I think its awful. I do the opposite on each postflop round.
I probably donkbet the flop in the hopes of getting limper and SB outta there.
Turn is dependent on what happened after I donkbet the flop.
If I played the flop like you, I checkfold the turn unless I have specific odds to hit my gutshot or set.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about Hero's flush draw, and the fold equity?

[YoureToast]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think its awful. I do the opposite on each postflop round.
I probably donkbet the flop in the hopes of getting limper and SB outta there.
Turn is dependent on what happened after I donkbet the flop.
If I played the flop like you, I checkfold the turn unless I have specific odds to hit my gutshot or set.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about Hero's flush draw, and the fold equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

Flush draw almost meaningless with more than one player in there, especially given the descriptions. Yeah there is a bit of fold equity here with the Ace on board, but the 3 flush board plus the fact that PF Raiser is on tilt destroys a lot of that.

I think you can bet here sometimes but only if you showed aggression on the flop, which poster did not.

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think its awful. I do the opposite on each postflop round.
I probably donkbet the flop in the hopes of getting limper and SB outta there.
Turn is dependent on what happened after I donkbet the flop.
If I played the flop like you, I checkfold the turn unless I have specific odds to hit my gutshot or set.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about Hero's flush draw, and the fold equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

Flush draw almost meaningless with more than one player in there, especially given the descriptions. Yeah there is a bit of fold equity here with the Ace on board, but the 3 flush board plus the fact that PF Raiser is on tilt destroys a lot of that.

I think you can bet here sometimes but only if you showed aggression on the flop, which poster did not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume the SB will fold just about anything here unless he flopped a big hand or made a flush.

[YoureToast]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think its awful. I do the opposite on each postflop round.
I probably donkbet the flop in the hopes of getting limper and SB outta there.
Turn is dependent on what happened after I donkbet the flop.
If I played the flop like you, I checkfold the turn unless I have specific odds to hit my gutshot or set.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about Hero's flush draw, and the fold equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

Flush draw almost meaningless with more than one player in there, especially given the descriptions. Yeah there is a bit of fold equity here with the Ace on board, but the 3 flush board plus the fact that PF Raiser is on tilt destroys a lot of that.

I think you can bet here sometimes but only if you showed aggression on the flop, which poster did not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume the SB will fold just about anything here unless he flopped a big hand or made a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would he fold a 8,9,T,J,Q,K of diamonds here if PF raiser folds. Not necessarily, especially if he has some other moderate to weak hand like middle pair or a gutshot. Fold equity here is very low IMHO.

[goofball]

Also, why I called on the flop. I'd been checkraising the flop a lot. Me doing that would have no fold equity whatsoever, and would just get more money in the pot. Besides, I think it allows PF raiser to play well on the turn here.

I though about betting out on the flop, I think that would have a been a fine play, and probably better than just checking and calling. Folding on the flop is obviously not an option with what is probably the best hand (another argument for betting).

Once I've checkcalled the flop my reasoning for betting out on the turn follows.

With the villians and the action I don't feel comfortable folding, I have a straight draw an a flush draw and what might still be the best hand.

If I just check and call again I'll have not even made a token attempt to get ym opponent to define his hand and have no idea where i am on the river. If i check and raise it's just spewing when I'm behind, and probably doesn't quite have the most fold equity of my available options in a spot where both my opponents are drawing very live.

If I bet, and get raised I know someone has me over a barrell and I can fold. If I bet it might produce one of those tilting disguted folds from preflop raiser especialyl since he thinks I'm psychic and lucky.

[BreakfastBurrito]

[ QUOTE ]
If I bet, and get raised I know someone has me over a barrell and I can fold.

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Would it be beyond him to raise a big A with no diamonds? You have 14 outs against such a hand, and assuming the SB folds to a raise you'll be getting about 8.5 to 1 to call the turn. Combining the likelihood of drawing dead to a made flush vs 14 outs against bigger pair no diamond vs 5 outs against bigger pair/bigger diamond I think it's still probably a call.

[goofball]

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Would it be beyond him to raise a big A with no diamonds?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. He's on tilt, thinks I'm lucky and psychic and probably would be unable to make that raise against a different opponent. There's no way he makes it against me.