Quads on the turn... Now what?

[PokerFink]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 ($132.65)
Hero ($100.50)
CO ($112.40)
Button ($23)
SB ($72.25)
BB ($100)
UTG ($134.15)
UTG+1 ($50.70)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.50.
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, CO (poster) calls $4, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG folds.

Flop: ($13) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $5</font>, Hero calls $5.

Turn: ($23) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $10</font>

Ok, well this is working out well so far... now what do I do?

[TheWorstPlayer]

If I got dropped into this pot at this point, I'm check/raising but still pricing him in if he has a flush draw. But I would never have gotten to this point in this way. How are you planning on stacking JJ? Or a flush draw that hits?

[PokerFink]

There is no way that I'm possibly not stacking JJ, since I'm either raising the turn or raising the river, and you know JJ is coming along for the ride. If I raise now and he calls you better believe I'm pushing the river since villian either has JJ or he is a total donk and might call anyway with AJ or something.

I'm more concerned about whether I should raise now or smooth call again and try to check/raise the river.

[unbendable]

fold

[PokerFink]

Nah, I'm "pot committed." Whatever that means.

[jacknine]

I think you´d probably get most out of this by re-raising the turn to $20 and betting another $20 on the river. Ofcourse, hoping for a reraise.
If I was this other guy and you´d smooth call my flop and turn bets and then check the river again, I would just check in fear of a check raise.

[canis582]

If you were a man, youd push the turn. If you are a baby like me, you'll call it then cross your fingers and toes before checking the river to him for the re-raise all in.

Edit: The min-reraise on the turn would get me to fold or call and shut it down with anything besides JJ or QQ or AA.

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: The min-reraise on the turn would get me to fold or call and shut it down with anything besides JJ or QQ or AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. Actually I'd be shutting down with just about everything but JJ.

I like your idea of a move of honor on the turn, but I don't know what can call it besides JJ. I think if the board were AKK, a move of honor would have more merit.

[wdcbooks]

This is the most minor nitpick, but I would have bet the flop. With a monster I think it allows you to extract much more from your opponent than the very suspicious looking check call. If you bet $5 and he calls, you then check the turn.

This line mimics a completely missed flop. Most of the time your opponent will give you less credit than the check call line. Checking and calling by the preflop raiser is used to feign weakness, but to me it screams the opposite.

At this point I would just call and hope a spade doesn't come out. If you raise on the river it looks a lot like a missed spade draw trying to take the pot. Even with a spade your opponent may make his flush on the river and be willing to pay you off.

[queball]

Well in this position the only thing that makes sense would be to smooth call the turn bet and hope for a check raise on the river...if he has JJ you wont have to worry about it he'll take care of it for you. Should he/she have anything less you wont get call with a lead bet on the river...reraising the minimum on the turn screams " i want you in this pot!!!"...another possibility would be to "weak lead" on the river and hope that they sense weakness and try to re raise....

[TheWorstPlayer]

It's not a minor nitpick. Betting the flop is much better. What do you do if the flop gets checked through, otherwise? Bet the turn? Now you're in the same boat you were in before, but have less room to build a pot. And if they are calling on the turn, they were probably calling on the flop. So just bet the flop. If they call, you can check the turn. Then bet the river. Not betting this flop is quite bad, IMO. If you have AQ, you're betting this flop, aren't you?

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have AQ, you're betting this flop, aren't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a chance. In fact I think betting this flop with AQ is a major leak.

[Matt R.]

As others have said, I may have taken a different line to get here. But, now that you're here I would simply call the turn and lead out on the river for $15. I think this will confuse villain a bit more into at least calling, and he may think you're bluffing a missed draw or made a weaker hand than his at some point (and raise you). The turn min-raise may work, but I think it's a lot easier to read for real strength.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you have AQ, you're betting this flop, aren't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a chance. In fact I think betting this flop with AQ is a major leak.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope that's a joke. You quite likely have the best hand but your opponent has at least 6 outs to beat you and quite possibly several more. If you are behind, you most likely have 10 outs to the best hand. And it is heads up. And you want action when you flop quads and bet the flop. WTF?

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you have AQ, you're betting this flop, aren't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a chance. In fact I think betting this flop with AQ is a major leak.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope that's a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously.

Anyways, I check/raised to 25 and he mucked. Oh well. Thanks for all the comments everyone.

[DoomSlice]

What I do here is flat call and then lead river for about 1/6 pot, JJ will raise you, hands that would fold to a check-raise will call the ridiculously weak bet.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
If you were a man, youd push the turn. If you are a baby like me, you'll call it then cross your fingers and toes before checking the river to him for the re-raise all in.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why 'a man' would push. I thought 'a man' would just try to maximize his take. Your hand is SO dominant and the only hand (by a non donk) that isn't going to shut down is pocket jacks. This seems like a case where you really gotta let the other guy bluff into you and then, based on that players tendencies, make the biggest riverbet that you think the person might call.

I think if you pushed 10 times on the turn in this situation versus betting around the pot on the river 10 times... you would make more money making the smaller bet on the river. There's just not enough hands out there that would call a push.

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
What I do here is flat call and then lead river for about 1/6 pot, JJ will raise you, hands that would fold to a check-raise will call the ridiculously weak bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this.

I think if an A falls on the river a larger bet would have more merit, since a passive player could fear that you have AK and just call with JJ instead of raising. Or if he was messing around with A-high, he would (perhaps) call a bet with his newly found aces.