Playing a tough player

[King_J]

Im playing in a NL game with 0.5-1$ or 1-2$ blinds with my friends.

We are all pretty solid players even though one of us are a little bit better. He plays a huge number of hands and then play the players more than his cards.

He is a pretty good reader. He does very often know when to bet and when he shouldn´t. Hes bluffing quite often but not too much and he does very often make potsized bets.

We all have about 50-150 times the big blind. Whats the best way to play him?? (BTW. hes winning 80-90% of the times we play)

Thx

[Rolf Slotboom]

Dear King_J,
The way you describe this specific player, it seems like he might be really tough (some of the best no-limit hold'em players play exactly according to this description). Usually when dealing with excellent players I would say "try to avoid them", but in this case (because it's a home game, AND because he's involved in so many hands) this will be pretty much impossible. What I would recommend is you study his habits, his tendencies, any tells he might have... Look at certain patterns in the way he plays his hands, and try to use this information against him. Because he is involved in so many pots, and you will probably be folding a bit more often than he does, you will have more than enough opportunities to get a line on his general play, and a better read on some specific hands- which hands does he play from early / late position, under which circumstances, and how does he usually play on the later streets, taking into account the texture of the board, the size of his stack in relation to the betting, or how he reacts when other players put pressure on him. Analyze the strengths of his game and try to improve your own game to his level by taking over some of his most successful plays. Probably you will find that the more you study his game, the more transparent it becomes. Good luck to you,
Rolf.

[King_J]

Thank you very much for a some great advice!
I will study him a bit more when he´s in pots and try to get him to my right.

[cero_z]

KJ,
The advice Rolf gave was good, but it applies to every opponent in every kind of game you might play in. For one specific example of the way to beat him, you might interfere with his constant limping, and pick up some small pots in the process. Here's how: take a seat to his left, and when you're in a fairly late position and he has limped, come over the top with a very big raise (Example: limp, limp, he limps, you raise $40). If this play isn't routinely used in your game, no one will challenge you without JJ at the very least. I would do this with one of your better hands, but it doesn't have to be great. Usually, you will win right there. If he reraises big, he's either a very tough player or you happened to catch him with a big hand. Mostly, he'll dump it. Remember, he's limping a lot, so his hands aren't often that good. If you work this right, it will go like this. The 1st time you do it, he'll figure you for AA and muck. The 2nd time, he'll realize you might be making a move, and will muck this time and plan to trap you the next time you try it. Guess what the next hand you'll try this "steal" with is? Big pair. If you're lucky enough to find one and catch him, you'll have won some big pots that night. Even better, he must tighten up when you're behind him from now on. The cons of this play? One big one: you may get unlucky and have a player in a later position wake up to AA, KK, etc. This is infrequent, and in most home games the players won't tangle with you with anything less, at first. One more: if the good player's got a reliable tell on you, he will often know when you're bluffing. This is why I reccomend you have a good hand, so if he doesn't re-pop, you may still have the best of it. Good luck.

[gaylord focker]

With respect to your comments, I think that is poor advice. He would be risking 40 dollars to win maybe 3 or 4 dollars with very average holdings. Seems like the upside is limited and the downside is tremendous. Also, a good player will only allow you to make a move like this so many times until he catches you with a real hand. I think Rolf had a lot of good things to say, and I would agree that it is always best to try and aviod butting heads with the best player in your game rather than trying to confront and outplay him.

[cero_z]

gf,
I agree (and stated originally) that Rolf gave good advice. I further agree with you that there are better things to spend your time learning than how to butt heads with the best player in your game. However, I believe the original question dealt with how to do precisely that. To that end, I offered a strategy, which I stand by. Remember, I specifically reccomended limiting these steal plays to two, and then waiting for a big hand to "drop the hammer" with.
My post was already long, so I didn't go on to say this: at least in the not-too-tough NL/PL games I play in (probably similar to the poster's), this is the execution of a sound general strategy: set players up with a couple of bluffs, and then trap them with big hands. I figured that a pre-flop raise as large as $40 would suprise the table (depending on the level of the players' experience), so it was unlikely that the initial steal would fail. Your goal here is twofold: get the good player on edge so he doesn't limp as often, and show the table you can give action. The beautiful thing about inexperienced players is that one big impression lasts a long time, so you can take advantage of the perceptions of your "risky" play for a long time.
By the way, no offense when I assume the table's inexperienced. I only mean that compared to a NL/PL game you'd find in a B&M cardroom.
Focker, that movie gets funnier every time I see it.

[thebroker]

Leave him alone and go after the weak. That IS how the strong survive. Big-bet hold em is Darwin [censored] man. Survival of the fittest.

[gaylord focker]

I can understand the strategy if you are making those raises to set up a play down the road. I see what you are saying.

[Trefo]

Don't waste your time with him....Try to isolate the other players and take them out....though when you have something on him slow play him as he'll try to steal the pot...Then you can come over the top of him. As your play gets better he'll become more concerned with you and will bluff less often. Try to sit on his immediate left if you can.

[Myrtle]

I find myself occasionally in a "similar, but different" situation.

5,5 PL HE B&M game. Game is generally dominated by a very strong & talented player. He post here, but I won't name him. Should he want to respond, I'm sure that he will.

He will generally have the biggest (5k-10k) stack at the table. He creates, gives & gets lots of action. He will build many pots preflop with mini-raises. His post-flop play is very strong & it is difficult to read him.

It has been my observation that many of the players at this table will play with him "just to take him down". They are not very often successful, but do succeed enough to keep trying. Some of them continue to believe that there is more luck to his game than skill. IMO, they are very wrong.

Here is my strategy when I sit in this game..

· I only play in the game if I can sit to his left: either directly or 2nd /3rd seat.

· I only play when I feel on my "A" game.

· Prior to sitting at the table, I will watch the game for at least ½ hour: Although I know some of the other players there reasonably well, it is crucial for me to know what the "table dynamics" are before I sit down. I want to know: Who's on tilt? Who's playing their "A" game & who's not? If there are players seated that I don't know, I want to see their play.

· I do not have the BR to match his; I'm generally in with 500 to 1K. BR's of rest of players at the table vary, however I am usually on the medium/lower end.

· Most of the players (MOST of the time) are focusing on Mr. Big & I am focusing on them. I am content to sit in the weeds and "play off" Mr. Big's" play. It seems to me that many of them are very vulnerable to tight/aggressive play on my part under these circumstances. It's almost as if they have the mentality of " he can't have anything, he's a small stack trying to make a score" (& that is true!) and they will chase me when I'm ahead most of the time. I have had good success with this so far.

· As far as getting involved with "Mr Big"? I avoid it, unless situation (holdings/odds, etc.) dictate my involvement. I believe he knows this about my play, and as I am "small fish" at the table, he will rarely play with me as my stack isn't deep enough to make it worth his while.


I would ask for some comments/feedback. Does this mindset of mine make sense? Are there other considerations that I should be concerned with?

[thebroker]

Sounds like your evolving just fine Myrtle. And by the way Greg scares the hell out of me and I've never ever seen the guy. His style is probably the most profitable style of play for pot-limit. When the stacks are right, that is. I would love for him to type up a essay on playing stack sizes like Natedogg did about 12-18 months ago.