Fold to a wimpy bet?

[smcannon]

I had an inkling that I was probably ahead after this dinky bet. But when it caught a caller, I figured someone might be playing top pair low kicker. Was I smart to assume this and fold?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t775)
MP1 (t2035)
MP2 (t635)
CO (t910)
Button (t820)
SB (t265)
BB (t875)
UTG (t1685)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t30, Hero calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t30, CO calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (t165) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t30</font>, CO folds, BB folds, UTG calls t30, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t225

[adanthar]

Raise PF and you won't have this problem, now will you?

[Karak567]

I don't really like raising JJ early PF.... leakage?

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF and you won't have this problem, now will you?

[/ QUOTE ]Listen to him, for he is wise...

[smcannon]

I'm not a big fan of raising any PP preflop this early in the tournament unless it's QQ, KK, AA.

Only exceptions being if I were first in the pot or it was later in the tourney.

[NYCNative]

Then may as well fold because you aren't gonna hit many sets and if you're going to call a PF raise to see a flop, may as well make that raise yourself.

[wh1t3bread]

IMO, If this is a 5+1 or 10+1 then playing JJ from early position in levels 1 and 2 for set value is not a bad play.

[Unarmed]

OMG can we stop debating JJ early PF?
Raise or limp, the hand can be played both ways at any level. There is no right or wrong answer so I wish people would stop presenting opinion like it is fact.

That wasn't directed at anyone in particular BTW, I just skimmed the thread.

[smcannon]

[ QUOTE ]
OMG can we stop debating JJ early PF?
Raise or limp, the hand can be played both ways at any level. There is no right or wrong answer so I wish people would stop presenting opinion like it is fact.

That wasn't directed at anyone in particular BTW, I just skimmed the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

With that said, can my question be answered now?

[draw2aflush]

Hello wimpy, Just kidding but,I definetly think (just my opinion)you played the hand fine preflop.Raising calling or even folding is expectable this is early in the tournament.Your choice would have to be decided by your assumpation of how other players will react.Immpossible that early.My choice would most likely be the same as yours(CALL).Postflop I would have also folded to the puny raise, with the intent of making utg believe all it takes is a bet and I will fold.This could very well snag utg later and also simply put (YOUR HAND IS NOT THAT GOOD)easy laydown.Good Luck 2u

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OMG can we stop debating JJ early PF?
Raise or limp, the hand can be played both ways at any level. There is no right or wrong answer so I wish people would stop presenting opinion like it is fact.

That wasn't directed at anyone in particular BTW, I just skimmed the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

With that said, can my question be answered now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Folding there is pathetic. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[draw2aflush]

One last thing.I would have been the one to bet 1st if utg checks but, that is a whole different situtation.

[smcannon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OMG can we stop debating JJ early PF?
Raise or limp, the hand can be played both ways at any level. There is no right or wrong answer so I wish people would stop presenting opinion like it is fact.

That wasn't directed at anyone in particular BTW, I just skimmed the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

With that said, can my question be answered now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Folding there is pathetic. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[Unarmed]

You said:

[ QUOTE ]

I had an inkling that I was probably ahead after this dinky bet. But when it caught a caller, I figured someone might be playing top pair low kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some random thoughts I'd have in this spot:

What sort of hand do you think MP2 needs to min-bet this bone dry flop after no one shows any interest in it?
Answer: Any two cards

Would he min-bet a Q that he limped with?
Answer: Maybe, but I doubt it

What sort of hand do you think UTG needs to call this flop bet getting 6.5-1?
Answer: Any two cards

Would UTG limp a crap queen?
Answer: I doubt it

Would UTG check/call a min-bet on the flop with a good queen?
Answer: I doubt it

You folded the best hand 9 times out of 10 here. The other time someone has a set or something huge, but you're toast with AA in that case too, and I don't think you're folding AA here.

[draw2aflush]

Well, cannon I guess you could care less about my response.Opinion (walking on eggshells because so many people get offended.) Folding is not that bad unless you have an ego problem.The problem was you have should bet on the flop.Seat 2 is then faced with the same decision you were.If seat 2 raising you oh forgot it.you ignored my first response.You would rather focus on some poster who thinks your play is weak

[USGrant]

I don't think I understand any logic that supports not raising PF with JJ, regardless of where you are in the tourney. If after all the debating on JJ and it's still (supposedly) a coin flip decision, then you might as well raise PF, because you're better off aggressive.

[hummusx]

1) Calling is fine here
2) Bet the flop, something like T100
3) Raise the min-bet, something like T135

There's a good chance you are ahead and you should make some money. You aren't going to get very many good hands, you should take advantage while you can.

[draw2aflush]

Do not compound your error of not betting on the flop by raising to win a puny pot.If and if seat 2 is bluffing WHO CARES!!!! If seat 2 is bluffing they will fold if you raise but, by laying down you will feed their aggressive bluffing and you will snag them later.

[RiverDood]

Preflop's already been analyzed, and I'd probably also lean toward a 3BB or 4BB raise, just to push out the guys with Q-rag, K8s, A5, etc. (Not to mention the BB with rags that could complicate things if the flop comes with 3 rags.) That lets you play the flop with a lot more conviction. But if it's an aggressive table with lots of reraises, then limping could make sense, too.

The flop call actually is what struck me as most worthy of further debate. What if you take the lead? A flop that ragged with Qxx might actually be good for you. It's quite possible that you're in the lead, if other people are playing Ax, Kx, small pairs or some suited nonsense.

With two checks to you, I'd bet T90 and see if that was enough to take it down. I'd say there's maybe a 40% chance that it carries the table. If you get reraised, you're out of the hand. If you get a caller, try to see a free card at the turn and get to a showdown cheap. And if you see a J on the turn or river, you're about to get rich.

MP2's T30 bet on the flop doesn't strike me as a weak Q. A weak Q's best hope is to try to take down the pot right there, with a T90 or T120 bet. Regardless of what he has, he needs to represent a strong Q. He doesn't want to give overcards or middle/bottom pair a chance to hang on cheap and try to outdraw him.

Two possibilities come to mind on the T30 bet. It could be 66, 88 or some other middle pair that's probing. Not a brilliant bet, but very understandable why someone would make it. Or it could be 77 or 55, hoping to get reraised or at least start building a pot.

In any case, a ragged flop like that often goes to the first guy to take a shot at it. With a PP that's between middle and top pair, there's a nice opening for you.

[DeathbySuckout]

[ QUOTE ]

What sort of hand do you think MP2 needs to min-bet this bone dry flop after no one shows any interest in it?
Answer: Any two cards

Would he min-bet a Q that he limped with?
Answer: Maybe, but I doubt it

What sort of hand do you think UTG needs to call this flop bet getting 6.5-1?
Answer: Any two cards

Would UTG limp a crap queen?
Answer: I doubt it

Would UTG check/call a min-bet on the flop with a good queen?
Answer: I doubt it

You folded the best hand 9 times out of 10 here. The other time someone has a set or something huge, but you're toast with AA in that case too, and I don't think you're folding AA here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything here.....................except:
[ QUOTE ]

Would UTG limp a crap queen?
Answer: I doubt it


[/ QUOTE ]
Real answer: Everyday at the lower buy-ins

With that being said,
Did UTG or MP2 limp with crappy Q this hand?
Answer: I doubt it

Every time a multi way pot is checked around to the last couple players in the hand, one of those last couple of players is going to take a shot at the pot, and most of the time someone else is going to try to keep him honest and call. Yeah, you probably had the best hand at this point.

I always limp in early levels w/ JJ. Maybe I'm playing it wrong. But in this case, I think I would have checked, then raised the min-bet.

[Socrates]

Lets assume you make the same play with KK. Are you folding to a bet like that with an A on the board? Why or why not?

[adanthar]

I'm going to reply to myself to add that this is like the second or third time I've ever had to wake up that early this year, I'll have to keep doing it for at least the next two months, and I've just discovered that the morning crew on this forum is godawful so please fix your games before I start going citanul on you all. TIA.

[smcannon]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, cannon I guess you could care less about my response.Opinion (walking on eggshells because so many people get offended.) Folding is not that bad unless you have an ego problem.The problem was you have should bet on the flop.Seat 2 is then faced with the same decision you were.If seat 2 raising you oh forgot it.you ignored my first response.You would rather focus on some poster who thinks your play is weak

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy cowboy. I read your response and appreciate your comments. I didn't feel it necessary to just respond to everyone with comments that don't continue to add to the conversation.

[smcannon]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets assume you make the same play with KK. Are you folding to a bet like that with an A on the board? Why or why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't fold KK here, and the two hands are entirely different. For one I wouldn't limp with KK PF. Secondly, KK would be ahead of any Qx.

[draw2aflush]

So, someone a respones that says folding is weak and that is all is adding something OK!!!!!!

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
OMG can we stop debating JJ early PF?
Raise or limp, the hand can be played both ways at any level. There is no right or wrong answer so I wish people would stop presenting opinion like it is fact.

That wasn't directed at anyone in particular BTW, I just skimmed the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I can't agree here. The game is 8 handed, and hero is second to act. I think in this scenario, the scale slides very favorably toward preflop raise. It's a huge difference from 9 or 10 handed, and being UTG or UTG/UTG+1 respectively. Those extra players and seats really do make a huge difference in your hand equity with JJ.

[draw2aflush]

Player tourney_star
Games played 186
Wins 77 (41.4%)
I know this may not be staggering stats but,good enough to free advice.

[DeathbySuckout]

Adanthar, What would your play be on the flop if you raised PF? Let's say you raise t90(more?) PF, and get called by UTG and MP2. UTG checks the flop, Hero? How many chips do you risk, hoping MP2 doesn't have a Q? Not trying to be a smartass, just trying to see your line with the PF raise and floping an overcard.

[smcannon]

[ QUOTE ]
So, someone a respones that says folding is weak and that is all is adding something OK!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

What type of response were you looking for? Let me know what to write and I'll write it for you.

[adanthar]

Standard line: 2/3 pot (the same bet I make with AA here), shut down if called. Note that if an A hit I may well just check/fold.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OMG can we stop debating JJ early PF?
Raise or limp, the hand can be played both ways at any level. There is no right or wrong answer so I wish people would stop presenting opinion like it is fact.

That wasn't directed at anyone in particular BTW, I just skimmed the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

With that said, can my question be answered now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Folding there is pathetic. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

because there is a very good chance you are ahead. you need to take the lead in this one to find out what is going on here, i like a bet of ~1/2 - 2/3 the pot. my plan afterwards would be: if you are raised, fold, if you are called i like checking and calling depending upon the size of the bet.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
Do not compound your error of not betting on the flop by raising to win a puny pot.If and if seat 2 is bluffing WHO CARES!!!! If seat 2 is bluffing they will fold if you raise but, by laying down you will feed their aggressive bluffing and you will snag them later.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is about 1/4 of your stack. That's not puny.

[nokona13]

I took this advice from adanthar about 2 weeks ago and it's unbelievalbe how much easier it is to play post-flop. It plays basically like QQ (aside from the fact that there's on extra over, of course).

[draw2aflush]

True it is not really a puny but, hero has lost the drivers seat when hero played so timidly up to that point.The only way hero is going to get anyway to fold (because this is not heads up it is still multi-way)is to make a really aggresive bet which is very risky.Why not wait for a better oppurtinity to arise.Hero stills has 745 left that is plenty

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Note that if an A hit I may well just check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm so glad that someone else has this philosophy as well. I'm tired of hearing "the Ace is a scare card -- bet it!" What do these people think these donks are calling with?

BTW, I've been meaning to ask you for months: what's your avatar, anyway?

[adanthar]

Just some dude that popped up when I googled for 'lawyer'. I've used that guy as an avatar since before I started LS /images/graemlins/tongue.gif