Hand rankings

[Tilt]

Does anyone have a table of Omaha Hi preflop hand rankings?

I've searched this forum, but couldn't find anything.

[Bartholow]

It's very difficult to rank omaha hands the way you would for texas hold'em, because there are SO many variations. The closest thing I've seen is point count systems which are actually pretty reasonable: Hutchinson point count system (http://erh.homestead.com/omaha.html)

[PorscheNGuns]

Hand rankings are best done in groups. My personal selection, not based on any Omaha books, is:

Top hand can easily be placed on AAJTds.

Group 1, the best hands, are AA(paint)(paints)ds, KK(paint)(paint)ds, any four paint cards doublesuited, or AAKK and AAQQ.

Group 2, any run of cards higher than 4. 5678, 89TJ, etc. ds preferred.

Group 3 is any 3 card run (one gappers allowed) that has nut flush backing, or high pair backing, so QQT9, JJT9, or KKJ9 for instance. Or A5s67, or ATs89, or A6s78 for example.

Beyond that I dont play anything, unless its AA rag rag and I can go close to all in on the flop against 1 or maybe 2 opponents tops (which is preceded by a huge preflop reraise of course)

-Matt

[PorscheNGuns]

I should note that with a group 1 hand, you are looking to flop top set with a flush draw on board. A set of aces vs. a flush draw in Omaha, one on one, is 75% to 25%, and often at low stakes Party PLO flush draws pay off to the max.

Group 2 hands are looking for 13 outers or 17 out wraparounds. Again when they hit, you are just betting out with a 50% or sometimes 70% chance of winning, also often getting paid off to the max

Group 3 hands are marginal but can often pick up open ended straight/flush draws, both to the nuts.

-Matt

[Hans Gruber]

Porsche-
I'm fairly new to Omaha, and I'm just now starting to make somewhat steady money in .10/.25 PL on stars. Your hand selections look great...but do you ever play big pocket pairs if they have rags with them? For example, would you play KK72 if you were pretty certain that you could limp in and see a cheap flop? Obviously, you're hoping to flop a King, which is like 7.8 to 1.

I tend to play this kind of crap hand at .10/.25, since it is so passive before the flop and quite often you see 7 or 8 limping pre-flop. When you hit that set, you can often win a huge pot from people calling you down with terrible draws. So I guess my question is, would you consider this kind of hand profitable at the low stakes tables, where the pre-flop play is so passive?

[joewatch]

Ciaffone's book says it is ok to limp in with KKxx. But you should only call a raise if you the raiser is known to be an LAG player who will raise with a large variety of hands such as 8764, QQxx, JJxx, etc. Otherwise, most raisers have AAxx and you will be a significant preflop dog.

[PorscheNGuns]

Yes, I will limp late with KKxx if I'm confident there wont be a raise (like sometimes if a player just lost his whole stack but has $3 left in front of him, he'll usually tilt the last 3 off or situations of that nature). Your looking to flop a King obviously, and at the low stakes PLO, if you just start betting out, people will chase you with middle and bottom sets, and flush draws. If there is both a flush and straight draw on the flop, then I tend to be hesitant, and virtually stop dead into a big field (you dont want to be going head on into a 17 out hand or 13 out hand).

-Matt

[RickyG]

[ QUOTE ]
Otherwise, most raisers have AAxx and you will be a significant preflop dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont see how this matters much. If the purpose of calling with the KK is to flop a set and dump it if you dont. I guess my point is not that you think you are winning, but that you have implied odds if you hit.

[Big Dave D]

How you play preflop is of tiny consequence in PLO. I have known winning players who play just over 50% of their hands, and raise with half of them, to 30% preflop, and raising with maybe a third.

Its the other streets that are the key.

gl

Dave

Poker Blog! Omaha Galore! (http://www.internetpokerpro.com)

[LA_Price]

Ciaffone's Omaha book has a good table that lists certain hand's and the action he would take would them. I think this is a good place to start. Crockpot has a site at www.winningonlinepoker.com (http://www.winningonlinepoker.com) that also has a good guide.

You're going to hear many different ideas on preflop play and I think alot of them work. The reason being that most preflop raises aren't for the pure sake of expectation as is the case in limit hold'em but many are made for positional and deception purposes that dictate how the later streets are played.

[PorscheNGuns]

I disagree. I think preflop selection may be of lesser importance compared to other forms of poker, but your preflop play in PLO forms the foundation for your entire style and play thereafter IMO

-Matt

[Tilt]

Thanks everyone. The point system is helpful.

I am playing alot of low limit Omaha hi these days - very profitable. Preflop play is actually the only part that taxes my brain at all. The rest is pretty automatic.

[Big Dave D]

I'm not sure what you mean by "foundation". If you mean that you need to understand how to play a wide range of situations, based on how you get to them in the first place preflop, then yes I would agree. But I didnt comment on this.

Where I am absolutely sure I am right, and I dont use that phrase lightly, is that any grouping or ranking or value based system would have only beginners value as opposed to limit holdem where some players clearly make money just by playing better preflop - at least online.

Let me give an example. Most good players in the 15-30 ring limit games on Party have a VIP of between 17-22. There is almost no deviation from this. A guy playing 40% of his hands, by definition, MUST be a losing player.

Yet I have seen comparable examples in PLO the live long day. And both were winners.

gl

Dave
Poker Blog! Omaha Galore! (http://www.internetpokerpro.com)

[BluffTHIS!]

Dave, I certainly agree that postflop play is where the money is made in pot limit omaha, and that some very tight players for whom aces constitute a sizeable proportion of their hands played when not in an unraised blind are probably long term losers since they can't get away from them in multiway pots or very bad boards when they don't already have at least half their stack in preflop.

Nonetheless, as porsche pointed out, starting standards are the foundation that enables you to play well postflop, and playing too many hands in any form of poker is just playing too loose and leads to either loosing or not winning as much as one should. There is all the difference in the world in playing a hand with a suited dangler like KQJ2 in early position with a big stack and playing it near the button. You are most likely going to flop a draw with it, and being out of position against other drawing players who have a 4th card working is just a recipe for disaster long term.

[Big Dave D]

Bluff,

I'm not sure you are disagreeing with what I said. That's what I meant by my first paragraph. But continuing the theme, some people play those marginal situations very well. Its also the reason I dont do the out of position raising thing. I know it doesnt suit my post flop gameplan. Yet some winning players delight in it.

gl

Dave

[PorscheNGuns]

I think what you meant, with which I agree, is that there is no rigid *selection of preflop cards to adhere by - but preflop *play is of great importance.

-Matt

[Spellmen]

I will limp with anything JJ-KK hoping to flop top set. In certain situations I will also call a raise with these bare pocket pairs because of the immense implied odds of hitting top set (in low limit of course)

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
Ciaffone's book says it is ok to limp in with KKxx. But you should only call a raise if you the raiser is known to be an LAG player who will raise with a large variety of hands such as 8764, QQxx, JJxx, etc. Otherwise, most raisers have AAxx and you will be a significant preflop dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

When calling a raise with KKxx, I much prefer my opponent to have AAxx than any other hand.

[JoshuaMayes]

[ QUOTE ]
if he raiser is known to be an LAG player who will raise with a large variety of hands such as 8764 . . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh oh, I might be a LAG . . .

[texman]

your hand selection is pretty tight - what % of hands do you see the flop with - and do you play that tight on the button and the b linds?

[RickyG]

You're not supposed to raise that?

Go figure.

[PorscheNGuns]

I'm usually somewhere between 25% and 32% after a 1000 hand winning session.

It is pretty tight, but at Party's $25, $50, and $100, staying tight preflop and straightforward postflop seems to be holding up for keeping variance down and profits steady. Tricky plays detailed in Ciaffone and TJ's books trick good/great players, but a whole different playbook is required for new/bad/clueless/gambling players.

Im not sure what kind of players play at 200, 400, 1000, or 2000 PLO on Party, though I'd imagine there is a healthier mix of good players.

-Matt