Can I call this turn?

[blackaces13]

I find myself in spots like this a lot, especially with A3, and I'm not sure how to proceed.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Omaha/8 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (5 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero...

[templar999]

brock,

A3 + 2 paint is not an easy hand to play. but since you're capable of folding on this turn, i'm assuming you know when to get away from it. if that's the case, it should be a winner for you in the long run.

1. i'd raise preflop, unless opponents are extremely loose callers in the blinds. against three limpers and random hands in the blinds while on the button, your hand is very likely to be ahead. even if someone has A2, it's probably a very mediocre A2. and your paints can always bail you out if the flop comes with only 1 low card. rewards of raising include:
- dead money from the blinds should they fold.
- giving you the lead.
- possibility of taking a free turn on the flop.

2. on the turn, i'd be inclined to fold. the check/call by the UTG on the rainbow flop would indicate to me a bare A2. i'd put MP1 on two pair or a set. if that's the case, you're drawing pretty badly both ways with just a pair and no flush draw. only tens and deuces are good for you. and Th and 2h are not clean. the pot's not big enough to go fishing.

as an aside, i've often found one particular tip helpful in muddy situations like this, and it may help you as well. i think about what i'm drawing to. then i ask myself, barring the miracle catch, if i make my hand (in this case, an A3 low), is it a hand i can bet or raise with? if not, then my draw isnt worth much and folding is the best option. again in this case, barring the perfect offsuit ten or deuce, you'd be hard pressed to bet or raise on the river.

one caveat though. as bad as the O/8 players are at lower limits, their hands may be entirely random. if that's the case at your table, maybe a raise is in order...

respectfully,
temp

[blackaces13]

I must admit that I don't understand why with 6 outs to a scoop I should be deciding between folding and raising.

Right now I have nothing but there are a lot of cards that give me a good hand to showdown and 6 cards that almost certainly get me the whole pot, so why would I raise here? I don't think a raise will fold an A2 so to me the decision is between calling and folding. I'm leaning heavily towards calling.

[Ironman]

Brocktoon,

I'm reading this hand the same as Templer.

I'd be suprised when the cards get turned over if the villian has a set at this point. So, if I were a betting man (and I am), I would put the villian on A 2, or A 3 with the heart draw.

I have a rule that I follow that says, I don't chase the river and the turn to something other than the nuts, but in this case with the high draw as well...I think I call a bet and see the river if I can do it without being raised into.

There are some draws out there that might help you back into the pot if it becomes heads up as well. If another Queen comes or an Ace on the river, his low could be counterfitted and it could be checked to you on the river.

Is this weak? Yeah, probably. But you do have some outs to work with and many of them are scoop outs.

With all that said, if choosing to fold is wrong (and I'm not saying it is, Greg or Gooper would have a better feel for that statistically than me) I don't think it's wrong by much.

Good luck,

Dave

[JoshuaMayes]

I would fold this hand on the flop. The only turn card you want to see is a 2, and you are not getting the odds to chase it, especially given that you are not closing the betting.

[GooperMC]

Pre-flop: I would call. You hand is good but I don't want to build a pot yet. Personally I like to play A3s in smaller pots because it is easier to get a feel for someone else having A2.

Flop: Call

Turn: Call. A raise here would be foolish because even if your A3 is good for the low you are still on a draw.

You have somewhere between 6-8 scoop outs and I really don’t think that your opponent leads again with an A2 so I think your low is good. You are getting 6:1 pot odds and even if you only have 6 scoop outs you are close to getting odds to call. Throw in the fact that your A3 is probably good, you have some implied odds, and I would guess that you actually have 8 clean outs, I would call.

I think that is it pretty close but marginally +EV to call.

[gergery]

Preflop: I call. I don’t think this hand is strong enough to raise.

Flop: I’d raise or fold, usually raising here. You have a weak bi-directional hand so I’d want to force out SB/BB, try for a free card or bluffing opportunity on the turn, or find out now that someone has A2+set, or get a weak hand to fold. You have 2 Q’s, 3 J’s, 4 2’s and backdoorflush for maybe 8 scoop equivalent outs here so probably have odds to call getting 8:1. TPTK plays well against just 1 or 2 opponents here and you are ahead vs. A2+pair, A2+OESD, and have odds vs. A2+2pair.

Turn: Call. You have 3 T’s, and 3 2’s to scoop and up to another ~10 outs or so that might be good for high. You could even have the best hand here vs. an aggressive player with A2 and alittle something.

--Greg

[templar999]

apologies, my previous post to raise the turn was a bad attempt at sarcasm towards the poor 0/8 players. calling and folding are your only options.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

i can't see how anyone other than a weak-tight player would want to fold this hand on the flop against bad players. With a combination of top pair, a good low draw, and a backdoor nut flush draw, this hand is certainly playable, although foldable against heavy action.

Raising on the flop is not a horrible idea if your opponents are passive and a raise may actually narrow the field. It may also give you relatively cheap information whether or not you should continue on the turn. Without knowing how MP1 plays, it is possible he could have a set, or he could have a hand like Q678. I even know opponents who would bet this way holding a hand like KKA6. He could also have bet out with a low draw and bet out again after picking up a heart draw. My feeling is that at least one of the callers is chasing a straight draw it is plausible that someone is chasing with top pair plus a bad low draw that is worse than yours. QA6x is not unusual for any of the players in this hand.

On the turn, you have to think a little. You haven't really gathered any information to put anyone on a real hand. Someone behind you may have called with KK68 double suited and will proceed to raise the turn. UTG may have this hand and will check-raise the turn. On the other hand, you quite possibly may have the best high hand at the moment, with people betting and calling with straight and low draws, not necessarily to the nuts.

Omaha/8 hands are generally difficult to analyze without a notion of calling and raising standards of your opponents. I can make a case that against certain opponents, I would fold the flop and against other opponents I would easily see the river. Seriously, I have played at tables so bad that the queen of hearts on the river of this board would necessitate me calling one bet on the end. On a table filled with players who will chase straight draws, baby flush draws, and non-nut low draws, I think you have to see the river. If, however, you can say that a couple of players in this hand are the type who only chase the nut low unless they also have high prospects, then a fold on the turn is a solid choice.

[JoshuaMayes]

I am sure that I am not weak tight, and I would fold the flop. You will not be able to bet your hand unless a 2 comes off. I don't chase 2d nut low draws without something good for high, and I don't consider top pair a strong hand against five opponents.