Please Help My Short Handed Game

[Huh]

I was playing in a $6-$12 short-handed (five or six players) game last night and ran into a bunch of problems that I have seen in the past, and was wondering if any more experienced players would be willing to offer some advice.

I tried to employ a different strategy last night, and wanted some opinions. When we first started I loosened up my starting hand requirements, and played with a bet or fold attitude. I was playing a little bit less than a quarter of my starting hands for a raise, and had a good deal of success getting heads-up with one or both of the blinds. I gave a lot more value to "big cards" and less to suited-connectors, as I thought was appropriate.

Life was good…I was taking more than my fair share of the blinds and through sheer aggression taking down pots I had no business winning. Lots and Lots of fun, but…all good things must come to an end.

Soon I was labeled a maniac and players started three-betting me (the nerve of some people!) with less than ideal hands (I’d say about half of them were better than mine). I tightened up my starting hand requirements a little, and waited to get paid off. I’d say about 25% of the time it was three bet I would cap, probably with my best and worst hands.

I think this was a sound plan, but the hitch was some really awful heads up play on my part. It just seemed like I called down (or raised into) every real hand, and folded to every bluff.

One example of this:

I’m UTG with Black Queens.
I raise, Player to the left three-bets (he had been trying to isolate me since I started my hyper-aggressive phase), one more limps in, and I cap it.

Flop came down 9 high (don’t remember the exact flop, no flush, no straight). I bet out, its raised, I re-raise , capped and the limper drops out somewhere in there.

Is this type of play suicidal? Am I overestimating the value of an over-pair short-handed?

Of course, I ran into pocket aces, and lost a ton. I wont even bother to mention my horrendous turn and river play.

Another example,
I have pocket Jacks, three see the flop capped. Everyone took every raise they could.

Flop is : 7 8 2

I bet out, it’s raised; I three bet it’s re-raised. All three of us in (Same player re-raised me twice).

Turn: 7 8 2 T [No possible flush]

I liked this card a lot. I still think there is a decent chance that my hand is good, and if not, I just picked up 4 outs. I bet. It gets raised behind me and now I worry. I think I said, “That’s okay, the nine will get there” (I know…very stupid of me), and called the bet.

End puts up a Jack: 7 8 2 T J.

Feel real good about my hand here. I bet. It gets raised (from the guy who had been cold-calling up to this point). I call.

Player who folded had pocket 8’s for a flopped set, and player who raised on the end had pocket 9’s for the straight. So basically, post-flop I went from far behind, to drawing dead.

Again, how foolish is this blind rage? How badly did I over-value my hand?

One last advice query. When I get heads up with another player pre-flop, I never really feel comfortable post-flop…especially when I have AK, AQ, AJ, AT and the flop is ragged. Any suggestions on how far to go with these hands and bottom/middle pair would be greatly appreciated. I believe the only advice from HEFAP had to do with a three-handed or heads-up game. Is the whole “Turn the top card into a deuce” still a valid idea?

I thank anyone who took the time to read this message and would appreciate any advice.

Huh?
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[JAA]

OK... There's a whole lot of topics covered in your post, I'm just gonna pick out the ones I feel I can answer most articulately.


When we first started I loosened up my starting hand requirements, and played with a bet or fold attitude.

You are right in that you need to loosen up your starting hand requirements, as you will usually get hammered in a short-handed game if you maintain a full ring game mindset. I can see why some people would think a "bet or fold" attitude is correct short-handed, after all if your hand is good enough to call, why not bet it and give yourself the opportunity to take the pot right there? This is all well and good, but if you focus too much on this approach, you are going to miss out on a lot of profit in certain situations. For example, a big part of my shorthanded game involves getting good reads on my opponents and exploiting them. This will often mean check-calling all the way to the river with hands that may seem, on the surface, to be worth betting. Here's an example.

I'm heads up with a player who likes to bluff/semi-bluff with any pair. Flop comes A73. I have Ax. I know that if I bet, he will call with any pair and then fold on the turn if he doesn't improve. If I check, he will bet any pair, and as long as I show no aggression he will continue betting his any pair all the way to the river, hoping that he is either ahead or will get me to fold a better hand. I didn't plan on this response being so long-winded, but I can't stress enough how much more money you can make off habitual bluffers in situations similar to this. In general, opponents who will bet hands they won't call with need to be treated separately. You will find a lot of people who play in a manner such as this in short-handed games.

I gave a lot more value to "big cards" and less to suited-connectors, as I thought was appropriate.

This sounds about right to me.

I think this was a sound plan, but the hitch was some really awful heads up play on my part. It just seemed like I called down (or raised into) every real hand, and folded to every bluff.

If you are going to play shorthanded, it really helps to have a handle on heads up play, since you will be in a heads up situation on the river a lot of the time. One thing I think you should put a lot of thought into is the appropriate percentage you should be calling down your opponents on the end. From the way you worded your post, it sounds like you folded to a couple river bets you shouldn't have. Now this may just be coincidence, or it may be because you aren't taking pot odds into consideration. Try to remember that losing 1 BB by calling a river bet when you shouldn't is a mistake; losing a pot by folding to a river bet you should've called is a disaster.

Of course, I ran into pocket aces, and lost a ton. I wont even bother to mention my horrendous turn and river play

The play on the first hand seems fine to me, but then again your reference to your turn and river play sound like you fell in love with your hand and gave your opponent way too much action. Hey, it happens. Just try to learn from your mistakes.

When I get heads up with another player pre-flop, I never really feel comfortable post-flop…especially when I have AK, AQ, AJ, AT and the flop is ragged. Any suggestions on how far to go with these hands and bottom/middle pair would be greatly appreciated.

This type of information is going to be very player dependant. If the flop is ragged and I have big overcards against a typical player, I'm definitely betting as I likely have the best hand. The more interesting question comes when they raise you on the flop. Some players will only do this with top pair or better, some with any pair, some with merely overcards because they know you likely have overcards and are trying to steal. A big part of shorthanded play is being able to get a bead on your opponents in situations such as this so you know what the best plays are.

Shorthanded/heads up play is IMO both the most difficult and the most rewarding form of poker. It takes a while to master but it will definitely be worth it once you do.

Hope some of this helps - JAA

[Ikke]

A lot of questions in your post, so forgive me if I miss some :-)

You have to loosen up in a shorthanded game as opposed to a ringgame, but a lot of players overdo it, and get too loose. It seems to me that you might be one of those, given your table image. But OTOH your opponents might be really too tight and your aggression has a lot of blindstealing equity.

But they adapted and therefore you have to adapt to them. Being labeled as a maniac has it's advantages (maximizing your winnings), but generally I think this is a bad image. People often play back at you, become more tricky and try to push you of a hand. Furthermore they will thin value bet a lot more against you which is unfavourable as well. So, if I were you, I wanted to get rid of this image.

How? Tighten up. And with quite some bit. Because now that you're constantly getting isolated by a 3-bettor that has position on you, you are in a very difficult situation. Your postflop play if way harder and you will often get outplayed. Because of your image you're basically playing a guessing game, or you have to put in a lot of bets to get a read, due to the inflation of opponents bet and raising standards. Ironically, the only way to get a read might be to play as a maniac.

Life has indeed become bad. Strengthen your image by folding. A lot. And if you get to showdown, make sure you have a good hand. Forget the bluffing thing. But be aware that you should play your good hands very aggressively. With this kind of image, slowplaying for instance has almost no value.

Your QQ hand seems well played to the flop. After putting in 4-bets pre- and on the flop you have to slow down. Seems to me you played maniacal on the turn and river since you dont want to mention them :-)

On your JJ hand: This seems an interesting hand to me, but the correct play depends a lot on the position of your opponents IMO. You might want to post this hand in a seperate post with all the information you had at the time.

You wrote:"When I get heads up with another player pre-flop, I never really feel comfortable post-flop"

Then you might want to reconsider your "raise or fold"-preflopstrategy. You see why?

"Is the whole “Turn the top card into a deuce” still a valid idea?"

In my book it's the same as Sklansky's hand charts. Nice for a beginner, but a good player should get past it and thouroughly understand the concepts behind it.

Regards

[J_V]

Great post Ikke. It's finally nice to see a poster who knows his stuff. Most of the mid-stakes advice is unreadable, and I'm not even sure most of the players win based on their treacherous advice.

[KDF]

IKKE,
Very informative and I aggree with most of what you wrote.
My question is: is it ever truly safe to become very tight and fold a lot (as you suggest) in a short handed game?

I'm no expert, but I have had a fair bit of experience and I have found that when another player starts re-raising all of your raises and continuously slapping YOU with a raise every chance they get, it is retaliation and "poker-malace" being demonstrated. I think that this behavior shows that they have played right into your hands and are way off their game. I find big money comes from this 'induced-tilt' scenario. By portraying a 'maniac' image, while actually playing a solid short-handed game you will tend to scare some into meek play and irritate others into idiotic play. Tightening up and folding a lot because someone is playing at you seems reactionary and does not lend to a winning strategy (IMHO).

If it is a matter of being truly outmatched by skill and excellent play and you haven't a chance against this guy, I'd say: pack it in and look for another game before you get killed. (or sit out, watch and learn)

I may be wrong and would appreciate other opinions.

Thanks

[Pot-A]

JAA's right on the money with his entire post.

When you fall into that "bet or fold" mindset you have a big problem - namely, your opponents know you don't have anything when you check.

So you start to overplay your hands. I find this syndrome to be very common among people who don't play short on a regular basis, and it will definately cost you money.

Also, over-agressive play causes unnecessarily large chip swings. Even if your play has a positive EV in the long run, you'll bust yourself if you get just a little unlucky. Remember, people get AA in short-handed play too.

You don't have to take all the other guy's chips in one hand. In this kind of game everyone plays more hands than in a full game, so it's easier to identify tendencies in the other players. Slow down a little and try to pay attention to what the other players do based on what they flop. You'll find a lot of people are insecure about short play, so they play very predictably, e.g. always calling when they hit the flop and raising when they don't.

[mobes]

I don't hink that you can tighten up in a shorthanded game becasue it is so obvious to everyone. You get no action whenever you make a play and the blinds kill you. In a full game people mostly pay attention to their cards....shorthanded is much more about playing the person. It seems to me like he is talking about a home game. You need to have different strategies for each player. You let the maniacs bet for you and pop them on the river and you push around the guys that are afraid to three bet you. And then if one of them starts to catch on you kind of reverse the strategy so they don't know what is going on. JAA is right though, shorthanded is IMHO one of the hardest skills to master. And don't even get me started about shorthanded NL.