30/60 SH #1

[scott8]

Button is tight, sb is lag

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: (6 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[PokerBob]

IMO your read on button as "tight" is too ambiguous for me to form an opinion here. Is he tight pf? Do you really mean that he is weak, and thus his raise signifies that he got there on the turn? Do you know anything about his trickiness, i.e. would do this with the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif?

[scott8]

tight, pretty straight forward.
Obviously I felt it wasn't a bluff, but my read is not from a huge set of hands.
Ignore the tight image if you want, lets just say he is a decent player that hasn't shown to be tricky.
Now what do you think of the line?

**By the way, I'm going to start posting hands so if there are other things I am missing please let me know.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
tight, pretty straight forward.
Obviously I felt it wasn't a bluff, but my read is not from a huge set of hands.
Ignore the tight image if you want, lets just say he is a decent player that hasn't shown to be tricky.
Now what do you think of the line?

[/ QUOTE ]

When he pops the turn, there are 9 bets in there. Calling down basically gets you 10 for 2 here. I don't play 30/60, but I gotta believe that the average player there is capable of getting cute here with a hand that you are ahead of, but most likley with a big /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I think it is close either way, and neither is a big mistake IMO.

[Nate tha' Great]

This is a borderline awful fold. A lot of players will wake up with like any ace here if they decide it's time to charge flush draws. A lot of players just play any ace this way anyway. Or he may have an ace with a flush card too. And all of that's assuming that this player won't play some other draw + pair this way. Frankly it's closer to a 3-bet.

[Clarkmeister]

Did an explosion shake the table and cause your cards to inadvertently fly out of your posession and into the muck? Man, I hate when that happens!

[scott8]

Considering I 3-bet preflop what is raising on the turn with? Do really think he is charging a flush draw?
He certainly could have limped with any ace, and a bad player would call 2 more, but he stayed in on the flop, and raises the turn?
I guess I still feel like I was way behind, but again that is why I post.
However, I do strongly disagree this was a horrible fold. (Thus far, anyway)

[scott8]

I also would rarely fold AK in this spot, but the way the hand went, I didnt like it.

[scott8]

[ QUOTE ]
Did an explosion shake the table and cause your cards to inadvertently fly out of your posession and into the muck? Man, I hate when that happens!

[/ QUOTE ]

So always call down at the very least?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did an explosion shake the table and cause your cards to inadvertently fly out of your posession and into the muck? Man, I hate when that happens!

[/ QUOTE ]

So always call down at the very least?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, sometimes I fold. But against the players that I think it's a clear fold, it's always such a clear fold that I'd never think to post the hand. The fact that you posted it leaves me in doubt that you were confident enough to fold given the situation.

[scott8]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did an explosion shake the table and cause your cards to inadvertently fly out of your posession and into the muck? Man, I hate when that happens!

[/ QUOTE ]

So always call down at the very least?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, sometimes I fold. But against the players that I think it's a clear fold, it's always such a clear fold that I'd never think to post the hand. The fact that you posted it leaves me in doubt that you were confident enough to fold given the situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually why I posted.
I so rarely fold in this situation, and I do mean so rarely, that I felt the need to share the hand.

[johnnybeef]

calling down is terrible...here is why: calling down costs you 2 more bb which is the same cost as 3 betting. 3 betting will win you the pot many more times than calling down, furthermore, you will gain a hell of a lot more information from a 3 bet...if he reraises, you know its time for a fold. if he calls you know he has a hand that is good but can improve. depending on my read of my opponent, i either fold or 3 bet in this situation.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
calling down is terrible...here is why: calling down costs you 2 more bb which is the same cost as 3 betting. 3 betting will win you the pot many more times than calling down, furthermore, you will gain a hell of a lot more information from a 3 bet...if he reraises, you know its time for a fold. if he calls you know he has a hand that is good but can improve. depending on my read of my opponent, i either fold or 3 bet in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's if he 4-bets the turn. What if he sandbags or has a hand such as a set or two pair that he'll flat call down or raise on the river (improved)? Then it doesn't cost 2 more big bets anymore; it will cost 3 or 4. Calling down a non-spade river seems to be the most prudent move. In my opinion, a 3-bet will only make a worse hand fold.

The only time I would consider 3-betting here is if villian is habitually 3-betting something like the K/images/graemlins/spade.gifx or semi-bluffing another draw.

Garland

[Klepton]

i dont like it

i cant imagine the number of outs you have, or the fact that you are still good

horrible

[JihadOnTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a clear fold

[/ QUOTE ]

If it is a fold, it is at the very least NOT a clear fold. This is a clear call down IMO

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
Considering I 3-bet preflop what is raising on the turn with?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's very reasonable to entertain the thought that the button put you on a pair of some sort pre-flop as at least a strong possibility, something flopping an Ace can beat. An Ace with a decent spade kicker certainly will test you in this situation sometimes when he has position on you like this. If he put you on a pair or AK he knows you can't have a flush at this point. He's going to show the hand down anyway and raising here might get you to fold. Even if he thinks he's ahead he might raise and not minding at all winning the pot immediately.

[johnnybeef]

check/fold the river...you show me someone who sandbags a monster on the turn when their opponent has made it three bets, and ill show you a player who is costing himself $.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a clear fold

[/ QUOTE ]

If it is a fold, it is at the very least NOT a clear fold. This is a clear call down IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you even read what I posted??

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did an explosion shake the table and cause your cards to inadvertently fly out of your posession and into the muck? Man, I hate when that happens!

[/ QUOTE ]

So always call down at the very least?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, sometimes I fold. But against the players that I think it's a clear fold, it's always such a clear fold that I'd never think to post the hand. The fact that you posted it leaves me in doubt that you were confident enough to fold given the situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually why I posted.
I so rarely fold in this situation, and I do mean so rarely, that I felt the need to share the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't describe the button well enough to suggest in any way that folding is even a decent alternative.

[scott8]

This is why I should be posting hands more often - it has made me think about this hand and my play far more thoroughly.
It seems apparent to me now that I can't be folding in this spot unless I am playing an opponent whose cards might as well be face up. While the button may not have been trying to move me, I don't have to have the best hand very often for a showdown to be the best play.
Also, I don't agree that 3 betting will get a worse hand (which in this case is at least 2 pair) to lay down.
-SC