An interesting case of the Gap Concept

[durron597]

A hand from the 2+2 Atlantic Trout. So we know the SB isn't a complete donk. What range of hands do you put him on here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t1362)
UTG+1 (t1387)
MP1 (t1555)
MP2 (t1810)
MP3 (t1215)
CO (t1465)
Button (t1450)
SB (t1335)
Hero (t2096)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t1335</font>,

[Eihli]

Do you mean "An OBVIOUS case of the Gap Concept"? Even if you put him on something like any pair or AT+ I don't see how this is a call, and I can't see him pushing with anything worse than that.

[runner4life7]

i dont find this to be very interesting, I have 50 chips in and have over 2000. The blinds are too small to even consider calling this.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I have 50 chips in and have over 2000.

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong, you have 0 chips. there are 50 chips in the pot which were once yours.

there is some dead money in the pot.

i wouldn't call here either, fwiw.

citanul

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you mean "An OBVIOUS case of the Gap Concept"? Even if you put him on something like any pair or AT+ I don't see how this is a call, and I can't see him pushing with anything worse than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think his range is that good? Why would he push with that?

[runner4life7]

I knew as soon as i said i had 50 in it would be pointed out but i was just too lazy to hit backspace so i referenced the blinds sizes...you just had to call me out...

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I knew as soon as i said i had 50 in it would be pointed out but i was just too lazy to hit backspace so i referenced the blinds sizes...you just had to call me out...

[/ QUOTE ]

it's my job. forum [censored] and all that.

citanul

[runner4life7]

It doesnt really matter what his range is, you are only a 63.6% fav against a random hand and I would like to believe he has better than a random hand.

[1C5]

For a 2+2 game it is a good spite call but with so low blinds, I fold this.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesnt really matter what his range is, you are only a 63.6% fav against a random hand and I would like to believe he has better than a random hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but I am taking the very best hands out of his range. Why would he push with AA-JJ? AK-AQ? This is a 2+2 tournament so he knows I'm not a total donk. I feel like I am *at worst* a coinflip and I could easily have him dominated.

[treeofwisdom7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have 50 chips in and have over 2000.

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong, you have 0 chips. there are 50 chips in the pot which were once yours.

there is some dead money in the pot.

i wouldn't call here either, fwiw.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]


i dont see a problem with saying i have 50 chips in the pot.. after all why else would you say you were pot commited if it wasnt your chips..

if i was playing a 50$ buy in i would claim that the 50$ i won was his money but now its mine. if he said it was his money i would argue that now it is mine. but he still can make that claim. if in one hand we both put 50$ of chips into the middle of the pot and he claimed it was his chips why would i argue/?

[ilya]

I put him on AA and I fold.

[Degen]

range? 27o-AA

Andre

[durron597]

I really don't see a decent player pushing AA here. I just don't see it.

I called, he had 97s and flopped a 9.

I still think call is correct here in this situation - player who probably wouldn't push AA, I probably have a skill disadvantage against the field... Against a complete unknown I fold.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
A hand from the 2+2 Atlantic Trout.

[/ QUOTE ]

I spite call, river quads and then yell 'ship it, holla'

[microbet]

AA

[runner4life7]

you can call if you have a pair here i think, but I just find it so hard to call because you dont need chips by any means why risk them?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
you can call if you have a pair here i think, but I just find it so hard to call because you dont need chips by any means why risk them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think a pair will do better against his range of hands? If you remove AA-JJ, AK/AQ from his range of hands (wouldn't he make a more normal raise in hopes of getting action?) then I'm a massive favorite against his range.

[microbet]

I would put him on AA because anything else would be more strange. He may well figure he isn't likely to make much here with AA and why not take a chance that you have a decent and and will call with it. That said, I wouldn't do this outside of the first hand of an $11 or below.

Interestingly though, his move (with 97o) is a little bit +$EV if you call with 77+,A9+. Your call is +$EV if you put him on 22+, A2+, KQ, KJs and clearly so, if you put him on any two.

However, I think this is a case that calls for a weighted range of hands if ever there was one. I think there is a fairly large chance (way way way more than 1/110) that he has AA or KK.

[microbet]

This hand may be the most extreme example posted of a violation of Lorinda 3:16 where it may well be +$EV for both parties.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I think there is a fairly large chance (way way way more than 1/110) that he has AA or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a 2+2 tournament. Thus it's safe to assume we both know the other is not a total donk. So he knows I almost certainly don't call unless I have 77+/A9+. Actually I would think that he would think my calling range is tighter than that - why would I essentially cold call my stack with a mediocre hand?

The math makes this an *obvious obvious* call if it is correct to remove AA/KK/QQ/JJ from his range. I think mostly everyone here is giving him extra likelihood to having AA because we've all see morons do that. But he's not a moron, and I know he's not a moron.

To all the posters who say he's likely to have AA/KK, would you *ever* push with it here? 2+2 tournament, tight image opponent...

[runner4life7]

My final comment on this thread, the guy is a moron, 2+2er or not, all in with 97o, whether he thinks you are tight or not, i dont think that can ever be justified. Where did he learn that move? not on 2+2 i dont think

[microbet]

I don't know if it being a 2+2 means that you really knew each other or not, but if you guys know each other well enough, all bets are off. That means he may be doing something goofy. That could be pushing with 72 or pushing with AA (hoping you will call, obviously). AA may not be the most likely hand, but it isn't 1/221 either.

Do you think pushing is a better play on his part with 97o than it would have been with AA?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if it being a 2+2 means that you really knew each other or not, but if you guys know each other well enough, all bets are off.

[/ QUOTE ]

The sum total of my information is that he's trout, that he hasn't done anything blatantly donkish all tourney, and that he knows that I am playing fairly ABC poker (so far).

[ QUOTE ]
That means he may be doing something goofy. That could be pushing with 72 or pushing with AA (hoping you will call, obviously). AA may not be the most likely hand, but it isn't 1/221 either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the play was really goofy - and I know he'd feel like a total moron if he pushed AA here and I folded like he expects 98+% of the time. Thus I doubted he had AA, I thought the chances of that were less than 1/221 - I thought they were zero.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think pushing is a better play on his part with 97o than it would have been with AA?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think pushing a 40 BB stack from the SB is terrible no matter what your cards. I don't really see the point in trying to compare the relative badness of "quite bad" and "pretty bad". He had a suited 1-gapper, maybe he figures that I fold nearly all the time and even if I call he is probably live, so the push is marginally +EV and thus correct (despite the variance).

[Eihli]

Even if you take those hands out, you don't call over 20 big bets to protect 1.5 big bets with AJo. The worst hand he'd push with beats you.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
He had a suited 1-gapper, maybe he figures that I fold nearly all the time and even if I call he is probably live, so the push is marginally +EV and thus correct (despite the variance).

[/ QUOTE ]

It is more than marginally +EV. It is marginally +$EV if your calling range is A9+, 77+. I'm just repeating this in case anyone will say it was an ok move on his part.

Just for arguments sake: He may put himself on par with the field, giving him no reason to pass up $ because he thinks he can outplay people. Also, if he makes this move now and is lucky enough to get QQ+ in the near future he can probably get called by a wide variety of hands.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if you take those hands out, you don't call over 20 big bets to protect 1.5 big bets with AJo. The worst hand he'd push with beats you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly it wasn't. He had 97s, which I am a big favorite against.

I wasn't calling to protect, I was calling for value.

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
My final comment on this thread, the guy is a moron, 2+2er or not, all in with 97o, whether he thinks you are tight or not, i dont think that can ever be justified. Where did he learn that move? not on 2+2 i dont think

[/ QUOTE ]


They were suited.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
They were soooted.

[/ QUOTE ]FYP

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even if you take those hands out, you don't call over 20 big bets to protect 1.5 big bets with AJo. The worst hand he'd push with beats you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly it wasn't. He had 97s, which I am a big favorite against.

I wasn't calling to protect, I was calling for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not THAT big of a favorite against this hand.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even if you take those hands out, you don't call over 20 big bets to protect 1.5 big bets with AJo. The worst hand he'd push with beats you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly it wasn't. He had 97s, which I am a big favorite against.

I wasn't calling to protect, I was calling for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not THAT big of a favorite against this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true, but I felt I was an equal or worse player against the field, thus any +CEV move is correct.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
after all why else would you say you were pot commited if it wasnt your chips..

[/ QUOTE ]

You're pot commited if, for certain reasons, the pot is too big for you to fold the rest of your stack (or whatever you need to put more). It could be *your* chips in there, or your grandmother's chips, or satan's chips. It doesn't matter how the chips got into the pot and who put them there.

All that matters is the size of the pot (or potential size) and the chips that are behind.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a 2+2 tournament. Thus it's safe to assume we both know the other is not a total donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't these 2+2 contests all about getting in touch with your inner donkey? Any time I've been at a table filled with little Sklanskies the play has been wild and laggy.

Has your experience been contrary?

[The once and future king]

At last someone with the correct read.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

Gap concept 101... you need a stronger hand to call a raise with. I think you're risking to much if you call... you only lose $25 by folding. If his GAP is consistantly that wide, and he goes all-in he won't last long... and hopefully you get to be the one that takes him down... with a calling hand.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Gap concept 101... you need a stronger hand to call a raise with. I think you're risking to much if you call... you only lose $25 by folding. If his GAP is consistantly that wide, and he goes all-in he won't last long... and hopefully you get to be the one that takes him down... with a calling hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I should have titled the thread "the reverse gap concept". But the Villian has replied that he would push top hands here too because it's a low stakes 2+2 tourney that he feels like screwing around in, (which is also why he pushed in the first place).

I still think that if a Villian would do this at all, he would do it with a wide range of hands. Edit: in the SB I mean. UTG he probably has AA-KK.