Preflop from the SB quiz [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

ClaytonN

05-31-2005, 07:32 PM

You just sat down at a good 35% 1/2 table and just posted the BB and played 1 hand.

You now sit at the SB and are dealt two cards.

There is 1 limper in MP whom you have no reads on, and it's folded to the CO who raises. The button folds, and it's now on you.

Your notes on the CO is that he's a ~30% VPIP guy who has a high level of aggression (around 3). You haven't picked up any tendencies on him postflop other than the fact he uses position to his advantage against weaker players.

You have no real reads on BB or MP.

What do you do with the following hands from the SB:

1) ATs
2) KJo
3) 88
4) 55

Have fun!

Weatherhead03

05-31-2005, 07:42 PM

I would raise with the first and tend to call with the rest. If you hit a set with either 55 or 88 chances are a decent pay-out.

dozer

05-31-2005, 07:55 PM

this is tough, I have a hard time with these hands with one limper in MP. CO is probably trying to isolate with position against a loose limper. 3-betting won't get MP to fold most likely, but it does allow you to take control of the hand and take away some of the advantage that CO has.

1.3-bet,ATs is probably the best hand given the range of hands that CO would be raising with in the CO

2.I think this is a raise or fold hand. I choose to raise for the same reasons as above.

3.have no idea, want to see what others would do. I know I wouldn't fold though. I probably just call and checkraise CO on a low flop.

4.same as #3 I'm clueless. I probably just call, and try to make a set.

mmbt0ne

05-31-2005, 08:01 PM

1) call
2) fold
3) call
4) maybe call/maybe fold

aK13

05-31-2005, 08:01 PM

Isolation raise with 1, 2. I'd probably wait for a good flop to check/raise with 88, and I'd probably just check/fold 55 if I don't hit.

thesharpie

05-31-2005, 08:04 PM

We don't know villain's preflop raise %? What about blind steal attempt? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Hand 1 I 3 bet as long as he's capable of making an isolation raise.

Hand 2 I fold.

Hand 3 I 3 bet.

Hand 4 I fold, but I can understand calling it.

mmbt0ne

05-31-2005, 08:05 PM

People. Come on. You're in the SB. CO has a VPIP of 30, not a pfr of 30. 3-betting KJo is pissing money away. You'd be better off investing in whores and blow with that money if you want to make this play.

ClaytonN

05-31-2005, 08:05 PM

We'll assume that the sample is large enough (say, 100 hands) that we can get a solid read on VPIP and AF but not PFR.

For simplicity's sake, he has a PFR of 14.

istewart

05-31-2005, 08:08 PM

I would probably:

A) 3-bet
B) Fold
C) Call (maybe 3-bet as well, though)
D) Call

mmbt0ne

05-31-2005, 08:10 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
For simplicity's sake, he has a PFR of 14.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn you Clayton.

I still stand by folding KJo, it's a trash hand here, but I don't feel as strongly about it.

I'd probably still just call ATs most of the time, with some 3bets, but I'd 3bet 88, and almost always call with 55, check-raising a lot of flops.

gvibes

05-31-2005, 08:11 PM

I probably 3-bet ATs and 88, and fold the other two. Then again, I raise too much.

Villian seems somewhat laggy, as well as position-aware, so his raising range with only one weak limper (if someone is limping in MP, they must be weak, right?) has to be pretty large.

dozer

05-31-2005, 08:16 PM

I assumed from "who has a high level of aggression" "the fact he uses position to his advantage against weaker players" that he raises a lot preflop.

But for KJo I think if we are going to play it, raising is better than calling, or just fold.

mmbt0ne

05-31-2005, 08:31 PM

KJs you could make arguements for, but KJo is a really weak holding here.

A call is awful, because the times he is behind you, his aggression is going to win him the pot if you both don't improve.

This hand is very easily dominated, and you're OOP. True, he might be behind you, but if he caps you're crushed with a holding like KJo. Also, and agg factor of 3 suggests he's very raise/fold, which seriously cuts down on your implied odds when you do outflop him.

aK13

05-31-2005, 08:35 PM

Redd

05-31-2005, 08:37 PM

Although I'd be more inclined to 3-bet 1 and 3, I absolutely agree with mmbtOne about KJo for all of the reasons he mentioned. I'd just like to add easily dominated hands are especially bad OOP IMO.

PuckNPoker

05-31-2005, 08:49 PM

*Grunching*

1. Fold.
2. Fold.
3. 3 bet
4. Fold.

dozer

05-31-2005, 08:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
KJs you could make arguements for, but KJo is a really weak holding here.

A call is awful, because the times he is behind you, his aggression is going to win him the pot if you both don't improve.

This hand is very easily dominated, and you're OOP. True, he might be behind you, but if he caps you're crushed with a holding like KJo. Also, and agg factor of 3 suggests he's very raise/fold, which seriously cuts down on your implied odds when you do outflop him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you are saying.

How much of a difference does one limper make when deciding what hands to play back with out of the SB?

If there was no limper, this would be a good hand to defend with correct? So with one limper how much has really changed. I'm guessing it makes a big difference if we had a read on the limper.

Bodhi

05-31-2005, 09:03 PM

So, in other words, I think the CO is full of sh*t?

Hands 1-3 I 3-bet.

Hand 4 I give up because I don't have odds for a set and it's really unlikely that I win ui.

ClaytonN

05-31-2005, 09:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, in other words, I think the CO is full of sh*t?

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be one way to interpret it (and in this case, incorrectly so), but more importantly take notice of his ~30% VPIP, 3 AF and 14% PFR.

Just because villain is in the CO and raises more frequently than average does not automatically turn your KJo into aces since he's "full of it".

Bodhi

05-31-2005, 09:09 PM

Ok, then I misinterpreted. You did leave it kind of wide-open though. At least, that's how I would play it if the CO is indeed full of it. Btw, you didn't say 14% pfr in the original post.

Let me reconsider then.

Bodhi

05-31-2005, 09:26 PM

Ok, now that I'm thinking about this more, is the CO's high aggression supposed to play into my decision? Dumb question I suppose.

mmbt0ne

05-31-2005, 09:26 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
I understand what you are saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good. I was confusing myself trying to explain it well.

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
How much of a difference does one limper make when deciding what hands to play back with out of the SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot. For one, it takes away almost all of the possibility of a pure bluff. Also, if he comes along, there are a lot more cards that are bad for you the 60-something percent of the time you miss on the flop.

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
If there was no limper, this would be a good hand to defend with correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like to have more than stats with an offsuit hand like this. KJs is a pretty easy defense against this villian. However, honestly, 14% pfr isn't anything astronomical. I'm 10%-11%, so I'm making about 70%-75% of the raises he is preflop. If I've seen him stealing often in his 100 hands, or have seen him showdown marginal hands like QT or K9 after a pfr, I would play back with KJo.

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
So with one limper how much has really changed. I'm guessing it makes a big difference if we had a read on the limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be helpful to know if he would fold for 2-cold, but that's a very hard read to get because it's such a rare situation, and he's going to have different hands each time, so it will probably take many hundred, if not thousand hands to know something like this at the micro level.

ClaytonN

05-31-2005, 09:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, now that I'm thinking about this more, is the CO's high aggression supposed to play into my decision?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

MrWookie47

05-31-2005, 09:38 PM

I'm with you, dude, and I like KJo too much. It's definitely a fold here. Even if I knew CO would raise A3o here, I'm still a slight dog to it. KJo isn't enough hand for me to defend from the SB. I'd call for one in the BB, however.

ATs could be either a call or a 3bet, as could 88. 55 is a call, given the other limper.

doubleplus

05-31-2005, 09:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1) ATs
2) KJo
3) 88
4) 55

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Raise
2) Raise
3) Call
4) Call

Wetdog

05-31-2005, 10:37 PM

Bodhi, not just CO but MP also. That alone would make KJo a fold. But I play KJo waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much and I should listen to myself.

1) 3 bet
2) fold
3) call
4) call

With MP I'm fit or fold with 3 & 4. I'm a weakie with small & midling PPs. I guess I make up for it with other speculative crap.

Isura

05-31-2005, 10:46 PM

1) ATs - 3-bet
2) KJo - fold
3) 88 - call or 3-bet, depends on BB and how bad MP is.
4) 55 - call in most cases

Isura

05-31-2005, 10:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
KJs you could make arguements for, but KJo is a really weak holding here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, calling KJo in this spot is no good. I'd 3-bet KJo if CO had openraised most times, but with the limper I throw this away.

Bodhi

05-31-2005, 11:25 PM

Hmmm, but I think KJ is just a tad weaker than ATs here. Because the pot is short handed, being suited isn't such a large advantage.

I'm still confused, but I realize now that my strategy is to figure out which hands I want the CO to bet for me, and which I want to challenge him with. Obviously ATs has a much better chance to win ui than KJo, so perhaps that's where the difference lies.

I still have no problem 3-betting with 8s.

JerseyTom

05-31-2005, 11:47 PM

1. 3-bet/call

I have to hit to win. Even if I flop an A, I have to consider the possibility of a larger one. I don't want BB sticking around for this.

2. fold

[ QUOTE ]
People. Come on. You're in the SB. CO has a VPIP of 30, not a pfr of 30. 3-betting KJo is pissing money away. You'd be better off investing in whores and blow with that money if you want to make this play.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was going to say something droll along the lines of "no good can come of this" (3-betting KJo), but this is much funnier...

KJo is trash... You only get action when you hit your hand if someone hits/has bigger.

3. 3-bet/call

I'd only 3-bet to ensure that the BB doesn't come along and if I at all suspect that CO is raising to isolate.

4. call/fold

If I assume BB will come along (and folks will call with a very wide range of hands getting 7:1), I'm getting ~4:1 (6.5:1.5) immediate, meaning I need to make up about 5 SB's post flop. I think this is doable.

Tom

Shillx

05-31-2005, 11:54 PM

I fold 3 of them and repop one. Not telling which is which though. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Edit - The idea of calling with 55 is interesting here. The reason why I don't like it (after I skimmed ye thread) is because the villian will have so many different hands here (we are also getting meh implied odds in just a 3-4 way pot with 11:3 odds straight away at best). The best to call is when you think he has a big pair. When you call a raise with a small pair, you are rooting for your opponent to have AA. In this case, we aren't really getting good set odds since the villian will usually flop nothing and not reward us. It is also sketch playing the 55 for what it is since it will be very tough to gauge when our hand is good and when it isn't.

Brad

Wetdog

06-01-2005, 01:58 AM

Now I'm officially done with KJo for good.

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 :#A500AF(UTG+2)/ calls, MP1 :#A500AF(MP1)/ calls, 1 fold, MP3 :#A500AF(MP3)/ calls, 1 fold, Button :#A500AF(Button)/ raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, UTG+1 :#A500AF(UTG+2)/ calls, MP1 :#A500AF(MP1)/ calls, MP3 :#A500AF(MP3)/ calls.

 OK it's weak. 

Flop: (10.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

 weak weak weak. 

Turn: (5.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, Button folds.

River: (8.20 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, MP3 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG+2 caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.20 BB

 I asked for it didn't I? 

Results in white below: 
Hero has Jd Kh (three of a kind, jacks).
UTG+2 has 8d 8h (full house, eights full of jacks).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 16.20 BB. 

edit: This was my first hand posting. Hardly worth the effort, eh?

doubleplus

06-01-2005, 02:48 AM

UTG+2 would have been getting just over 5:1 to call a pf raise by you - so he probably would have. And I don't think it was wrong to try to check-raise the flop, so I don't see why you have a problem with your play. Anyway...

sweave1

06-01-2005, 04:34 AM

I m sure this is wrong i might call the AT suited, but with a post aggro of 3 or better i think i fold the rest..i m sure this is wrong i guess back to SSHE....

bschlief

06-01-2005, 04:41 AM

1) ATs
Raise. Checkraise flop containing ace.

2) KJo
Fold.

3) 88
Raise. Bet any flop.

4) 55
Call. Check fold flop UI.

Henke

06-01-2005, 05:15 AM

Read the other replies, and they're all VERY different from mine. I say 1,2,4 are easy folds, 3 is the only hand I might reraise with, if I'm feeling good and the sun is shining.

Since I'm on the "disagreeing side", I'll post my thoughts... Why enter the frying pan with marginal to weak holdings when you're out of position against at least one aggressive opponent?

diebitter

06-01-2005, 05:19 AM

1) Raise - juice that pot
2) Raise - to isolate the LAG
3+4) fold - you ain't getting 7.5/1 or even close, so no point

If there were a few more rounds, and it's obvious he's a stealer, I might raise 3+4, and push it hard at least past the turn.

diebitter

06-01-2005, 05:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1) Raise - juice that pot
2) Raise - to isolate the LAG
3+4) fold - you ain't getting 7.5/1 or even close, so no point

If there were a few more rounds, and it's obvious he's a stealer, I might raise 3+4, and push it hard at least past the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

DOH! I forgot the limper! So laggy is prolly not stealing - in which case I'd fold the KJ and pairs and I'd still raise (1).

I find a bit of advice to myself useful in these situations:

"If you had to play this hand with these bets a thousand times, would you make money on it?"

IF you think you won't, then fold, overwise play...

THe tricky ones are ones like KJ (or QJ/QT), which look like they'll make money when you've just got them in front of you, but mostly don't.

JaysonWeberFCP

06-01-2005, 05:50 AM

Haven't read any posts yet so perhaps I'm way off after this discussion. I still sit 1/2 if its highly profitable(not sure where the co is from micro-small but 1/2 has to be it or near..)

ATs - Raise
KJ - Call
88 - Raise
55 - Raise

I've also been told I'm too aggresive at times, the way I see it he's very loose-aggresive so I want to get my money in with the best of it... Oh and I hate KJ.

I figure with 1 Limper, Either BB or Limper will call most of the time.. given it's micro-limits.

IMTheWalrus8

06-01-2005, 07:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do with the following hands from the SB:

1) ATs
2) KJo
3) 88
4) 55

Have fun!

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Raise - I don't want the BB in this hand
2) Fold (I hate KJo, and maybe I have to get over it)
3) Call
4) Call

I'm calling in 3) and 4) in the hopes that it will be 4-handed to pay off if I hit my set.

krishanleong

06-01-2005, 07:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
We don't know villain's preflop raise %? What about blind steal attempt? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Hand 1 I 3 bet as long as he's capable of making an isolation raise.

Hand 2 I fold.

Hand 3 I 3 bet.

Hand 4 I fold, but I can understand calling it.

[/ QUOTE ]

same

Krishan

PJM1206

06-01-2005, 08:57 AM

Well I am odd man out I fold all 4 hands. Just sitting at the table for 2 hands and no real info I fold all 4. The 30% VPIP is interesting but so...... I have had sessions where my VPIP has been close to 30% over a 100 hands but it typically runs 15-18%. I would want to watch how they palyed for a bit before I started resaising and I really dislike calling so..... I would invest my money later when I was more comfortable with how the others played

Zoelef

06-01-2005, 09:03 AM

Grunching

Assuming MP2 calls, I'm getting 5.5-1.5 to call, or about 3.67-1. If BB also calls it's 6.5-1.5, or ~4.3-1. Assuming BB calls 50% of the time, we're getting around 4-1 to call here.

ATs - Call, looking to hit flop hard or get out
KJo - Fold, I don't like offsuit gaps for > 1 bet
88, 55 - I think 4-1 isn't good enough odds for set-spiking, so I fold. However, I would definitely call this with another limper/cold-caller behind me in the pot.

88 is a good enough hand to conisder 3-betting to isolate MP2, but you're either up against overcards or a higher PP. So, I would want TT+ to 3-bet here.

<insert slew of "Zoelef, you weak-tight nit" posts here>
-----
Edit: I should 3-bet ATs here, even though a CO cap sucks ass. I quoted Milesdyson about a week ago and already forgot about it:

"All I think about with hands like TT+, KQs+ and ATs+ from the blinds is how much money I'm gonna jack from all the pussies who limped with lame ass hands. Drink some testosterone and hit the raise button."

So, in retrospect,

3-bet
fold
call/3-bet
fold/call

Once again, 4-1 to just spike a set with <= 4 to the flop is kinda iffy to me.

davelin

06-01-2005, 10:00 AM

Isn't it almost always a no-no to just call in the SB a blind-steal attempt?

vulturesrow

06-01-2005, 10:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it almost always a no-no to just call in the SB a blind-steal attempt?

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree with this statement.

diebitter

06-01-2005, 10:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it almost always a no-no to just call in the SB a blind-steal attempt?

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree with this statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally don't consider it a steal if there's a limper before the raiser. What do the rest of you think?

davelin

06-01-2005, 10:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it almost always a no-no to just call in the SB a blind-steal attempt?

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree with this statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally don't consider it a steal if there's a limper before the raiser. What do the rest of you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Frick, I read the original post as a blind-steal attempt.

diebitter

06-01-2005, 10:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Frick, I read the original post as a blind-steal attempt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't feel bad, I missed the limper AND the fact the hero was SB the first time I read it
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rev. Good Will

06-01-2005, 10:40 AM

1 - 3bet
2 - fold... if it were 1 notch stronger, or sooted, then I'd 3-bet in a heartbeat
3/4 - we're getting offered 1:6 in this situation, with more money to come in the pot. that with the fact that its 1:8 to flop a set, i think we have implied odds on our side to peel

I'm leaning a bit towards 3-betting 88, but i'm trying to cool my LAG tendencies/I think in this situation I think its better to play it for a set

Rev. Good Will

06-01-2005, 10:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably:

A) 3-bet
B) Fold
C) Call (maybe 3-bet as well, though)
D) Call

[/ QUOTE ]

whew, i thought i was the only one who had that line of thought for 3 and 4

diebitter

06-01-2005, 10:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]

3/4 - we're getting offered 1:6 in this situation

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if BB and limper come along you're putting 1.5 in against 6.5 (2 from raiser, 2 from limper, 2 from BB, 0.5 from you) - I make that 13/3 or just over 4/1 at very best

Am I missing something?

Sarge85

06-01-2005, 10:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]

1) ATs
2) KJo
3) 88
4) 55

[/ QUOTE ]

I see two folds
I see one raise
I see one call

I'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm also just inclined to three bet them all and play better post flop. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Rev. Good Will

06-01-2005, 11:14 AM

nope, my math just sucks and for a second there i thought it was .75 bets back to us instead of 1.5

with that in mind, I change to call for 3, and fold for 4

diebitter

06-01-2005, 11:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
nope, my math just sucks and for a second there i thought it was .75 bets back to us instead of 1.5

with that in mind, I change to call for 3, and fold for 4

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad it wasn't me. For a bit there, I thought I'd been making some sort of huge mistake calculating odds - very worried! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

theghost

06-01-2005, 12:33 PM

1) ATs - call
2) KJo - fold
3) 88 - reraise
4) 55 - call

Robert Ezzo

06-01-2005, 01:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well I am odd man out I fold all 4 hands. Just sitting at the table for 2 hands and no real info I fold all 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not too odd, I would do the same. With no reads on MP or the BB, and most definitely OOP, and assuming no real reads on the LAG (in terms of whether they isolate limpers often), I can't be sure that I'm good with any of these hands, and I'm only 4:1 on a call. KJo is horrible, 55 is too much of a "hit set or fold" hand (especially OOP). 88 and ATs are good re-isolation hands, but I have to be fairly sure that is what CO is doing before I make that kind of move. I only have 1/2 SB invested in the pot, better to get away from the small pot now, since if I miss the pot it could get ugly - since most LAGS don't usually back down without a fight.