open limping always bad?

[technologic]

is there a place for it in good NL play? i feel like it almost always gives away what kind of hand you have when you do it, a hand that usually wants to see a flop cheaply. but are there any spots where it is appropriate to open limp, without the intention of a limp raise? (ie limp raising AA KK UTG etc.)

[chuddo]

yes. in some very passive games that are easy to control post-flop, i like to limp with a very large range of hands.

plus, limping begets limping in these types of games, which is exactly what you want with a majority of the hands you are open-limping with.

then again, this is more likely to be found in mid-small games, but the situation does come up at some higher games where it seems the table is content with seeing a ton of cheap flops.

[Prevaricator]

how do you play small pairs?

[autobet]

If you are going to limp with your medium pair and suiting connectors, then you also need to limp with your group 1 hands to mix up your play.

[Rounder9999]

[ QUOTE ]
how do you play small pairs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not a fan of open limping with small pairs in NL cash games. I frequently find myself min-raising/raising with small pairs for several reasons.

1) You want to build a respectably sizeable pot for players to compete for when you flop a set.
2) From my experience it adds enough deception to your hand for you to win a sizeable pot as most players do not expect you to be raising at all with small pairs.
3) You allow yourself the possiblity to win the pot uncontested preflop (which is especially true in the 6 handed NL cash games).

However, if there are limpers ahead I would recommend limping.

[Rococo]

Some people get carried away with the concept of not leaking information preflop. There are three variables at work -- 1) the value in not telegraphing your hand to your opponents (i.e. disguise) 2) the value in getting more or less money in the pot preflop depending on the strength of your hand, and 3) the value in narrowing or expanding the number of players that see the flop.

Given those variables, I don't see how you can adopt the attitude of "always" playing pocket tens up front as if they were aces, on the theory that otherwise people will know that you don't have aces.

Suppose that my opponent knows that I raise tens UTG 40% of the time and aces 90% of the time. Does my opponent know that I am more likely to have aces than tens if I raise UTG? Of course, but I still have a reasonable amount of deception value. Moreover, if the table conditions are right, the value of playing tens this way may well outweigh the "deception" value that I gain from playing the tens identically to the aces.

That being said, sometimes table conditions favor raising the tens almost 100% of the time. It just depends.

[chuddo]

when i said "yes" i was replying to the question "is there a place for it in good NL play". not to "open limping always bad".

as for small pairs i like to mix it up and limp, raise, etc like everyone else.

i am a fan of making a 'value' raise with them from the blinds or button after limpers that i know everyone is going to call, just to make sure i get paid when i flop a set, or feel like representing something else to take it down.

of course that is only when stacks are sufficiently deep.

[turnipmonster]

it's a function of stack sizes like everything else is. for certain stack sizes I think it's bad, and for certain stack sizes it can be correct to open limp (possibly with the intention of reraising) with a wide range of hands. I know what you mean though, since most hands that like to see the flop cheap also like to have position, and open limping generally isn't conducive to that.

--turnipmonster

[creedofhubris]

Open-limping is a bad idea in a shorthanded game, but in a full ring game, what's wrong with it?

Maybe it's because I play online, where the games are more passive than in b&m, but I see a lot of solid players open-limping when they are reasonably sure they'll see multiway action for one bet.

Let's say you pick up 88 UTG in a 10-handed, 100bb game. What's your play? If not limp, explain.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

This is 100% dependent on your opponents. If they are all donks, open limp all you want.

The only time this doesn't work is if you're tight and almost always come out firing, then you pick up something like 66 and limp from ep/mp it screams Axs or small pp.

[Ulysses]

I limp all the time in certain games with all kinds of hands. In other games where limps always get attacked, I almost never limp unless going for a huge limp re-raise.

[cero_z]

Hi,

[ QUOTE ]
I limp all the time in certain games with all kinds of hands. In other games where limps always get attacked, I almost never limp unless going for a huge limp re-raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
I limp all the time in certain games with all kinds of hands. In other games where limps always get attacked, I almost never limp unless going for a huge limp re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. Where I tend not to limp is 6-max tables because the blinds come around so fast and I am happy to just win the blinds with most hands. Shorter than 6=never limp not only for that reason but because players are much more aggressive in short games and will play back at you with worse hands.