AKo Play

[Piper Tim]

Here is the situation:

Ultimate Bet 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.05.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 (poster) calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.20 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, MP3 folds, BB folds

What should the Hero do and why?
Call, assuming that UTG+2 made 2 pair with the 4, but hold onto the hand because it is strong.
Fold, assuming the hand is beat (not the best option I think).
Reraise?
Should UTG+2 sudden aggressive play be a sign that the 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif was a help to him?

Thanks for your thoughts.

[AmarilloJim1]

I think if villain is a good player, he waited until the turn to raise you...maybe he has two pair KJ. It is more profitable to raise on the turn. In this situation, since it was HU, and it would depend on my read on the player, I would call then check-call the river. A lot of people bluff at these limits. I would not lay this hand down.

[aK13]

Folding is weak. I hope your real decision is whether to 3bet or call down, in which case calling down is probably optimal.

[AmarilloJim1]

I said I would not lay the hand down. I would call the turn and river. 3-bet is wrong I think.

[benkath1]

I would reraise. utg+2 could be semi bluffing a flush or straight draw. If he caps I would consider myself beat, but would still like to see what the river brings.

[Piper Tim]

aK13 why do you think that calling down is optimal? I don't disagree just want to see what you think.

In this case I reraised. UTG+2 called.
River: 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero bets. UTG+2 calls and shows K/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[aK13]

1. I don't care about results.
2. You will find players raising here as a semibluff with 2 spades. (or just bluff-raising period)
3. Table image -- people are going to be taking so many cheap shots at you now that they've seen you raise preflop, bet the flop, bet the turn, and fold to a raise.
4. If they have picked up a raggy 2 pair, you have a ridiculous amount of "hidden outs" which will counterfeit it.

For example, this hand JUST happened as I was typing this post.

I have JJ on the SB.
UTG+2 limps, MP3 limps, I raise, BB folds, 2 players call.

Flop is 994.
I bet, 2 calls.

Turn is 7.
I bet, UTG+2 calls, MP3 raises, I call, UTG+2 folds.

River is T.
I check, MP3 bets, I call.

MP3 flips 64o, and MHIG.

Your example is even less scary since you have TPTK on the raggiest board ever.

[Disconnected]

[ QUOTE ]
aK13 why do you think that calling down is optimal? I don't disagree just want to see what you think.

In this case I reraised. UTG+2 called.
River: 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero bets. UTG+2 calls and shows K/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling down is optimal here because the likelihood of him bluffing with that turn card is pretty low -- you've been the only aggressor so far, and the turn card isn't scary. So, he would either be slowplaying a great flop, or the 4 gave him a better made hand.

[Swax]

ak13: I think that he was asking why calling down as opposed to reraising was the move - I don't think anyone has suggested that folding is wise.

As far as this being a semi-bluff - eh, that is really contingent on reads and stakes IMO. Very commonly a decent player might be sitting on 2 pair or a set after the flop and wait until the turn to raise, or deduce that you may be just trying to buy it with something like AQ and pop you back...however, playing at .05/.10 I don't expect either of those scenarios - I'd assume that the 4 helped villain and put him on the exact hand that he had - hence i'd call down. I definitely agree with all of your reasons for not folding. but I don't think I'd pop back either - not unless villain has shown examples of aggression and/or crafty play that is relatively uncommon at that level.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
ak13: I think that he was asking why calling down as opposed to reraising was the move - I don't think anyone has suggested that folding is wise.

As far as this being a semi-bluff - eh, that is really contingent on reads and stakes IMO. Very commonly a decent player might be sitting on 2 pair or a set after the flop and wait until the turn to raise, or deduce that you may be just trying to buy it with something like AQ and pop you back...however, playing at .05/.10 I don't expect either of those scenarios - I'd assume that the 4 helped villain and put him on the exact hand that he had - hence i'd call down. I definitely agree with all of your reasons for not folding. but I don't think I'd pop back either - not unless villain has shown examples of aggression and/or crafty play that is relatively uncommon at that level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, in that case, if he's bluffing, we want him to continue to bluff on the river, whereas if we 3bet, he will probably fold a worse hand. Also, players like to pop their monsters on the turn, I think 3betting is just chip spewing.

[irishpint]

[ QUOTE ]
1. I don't care about results.
2. You will find players raising here as a semibluff with 2 spades. (or just bluff-raising period)
3. Table image -- people are going to be taking so many cheap shots at you now that they've seen you raise preflop, bet the flop, bet the turn, and fold to a raise.
4. If they have picked up a raggy 2 pair, you have a ridiculous amount of "hidden outs" which will counterfeit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes no sense. Those are all reasons TO 3bet, NOT call down like you suggested earlier.

[irishpint]

oh i took that out of context. initially you suggested calling down, which is correct i think. what i took were your reasons for calling down vs folding to the raise. got it. i agree folding here would be terrible.

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 (poster) calls

[/ QUOTE ]

This says it all. Random 2pr is the most likely hand. Raising can't be good out of position.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. I don't care about results.
2. You will find players raising here as a semibluff with 2 spades. (or just bluff-raising period)
3. Table image -- people are going to be taking so many cheap shots at you now that they've seen you raise preflop, bet the flop, bet the turn, and fold to a raise.
4. If they have picked up a raggy 2 pair, you have a ridiculous amount of "hidden outs" which will counterfeit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes no sense. Those are all reasons TO 3bet, NOT call down like you suggested earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, yeah, I'm dumb. I am 5 tabling, so my responses suck balls =(.

[irishpint]

no i think you were right and i just got confused with what specifically you were suggesting. more importantly is how you are able to read posts and respond while 5 tabling. I guess I'm on a laptop which makes a big difference, but at 3 tables my reading goes down and my responses go to nil.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
no i think you were right and i just got confused with what specifically you were suggesting. more importantly is how you are able to read posts and respond while 5 tabling. I guess I'm on a laptop which makes a big difference, but at 3 tables my reading goes down and my responses go to nil.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play on a desktop at 1280x1024, and with the prima miniview, 5 tables fits ok. For some reason, I still feel like I'm not playing enough hands (theres not enough action at once), so I read the forums =D.

[Womble]

Three things:
1. He is slowplaying something good on the flop (set/2pair)
2. He is going crazy with a K or flush draw
3. The turn made him 2 pair

You think its 3 so you have the 3 A outs, 3 T outs, 3 5 outs assuming the 4 made him 2pair giving you 9 outs. Should you call? YES!

You normally have alot more outs than you think against 2 pair /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[gvibes]

I need a read before 3-betting this turn. I pay off.