QQ

[NotReady]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1234)
SB (t3700)
BB (t706)
Hero (t2360)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.

No reads. Party $11. 8 hands till blind increase.
Hero?

[TStokes]

Push

[johnnybeef]

fold....cmon

[Unarmed]

Raise to 800.

[kyro]

stop

[NotReady]

Kinda figured. Had to try.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
stop

[/ QUOTE ]

I was serious. Actually, I just noticed its an $11. Forget it.

Raising to 800 is a lovely play at the higher levels.
I'd rather do it with KK/AA but if raptor is in the SB I'd do it with QQ as well. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Phill S]

I flat limp.

Look at the stacks, even without reads your money will go in the middle 80% of the time, who cares who the guy doing it is?

And if you see a flop, assuming there is no overcard, you can assume your pair is good.

You dont push here because the other big stacks will move out of the way and so your only taking on the shorty. You want one of them to do something stupid, even if its completing in the SB and catching top pair on a J high board.

Phill

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
stop

[/ QUOTE ]

I was serious. Actually, I just noticed its an $11. Forget it.

Raising to 800 is a lovely play at the higher levels.
I'd rather do it with KK/AA but if raptor is in the SB I'd do it with QQ as well. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, I don't like it with QQ. I can see it with KK or AA. But I have to push any flop anyways, and I'm going to be pissed if an A or K hits. I'd much rather limp.

[Unarmed]

You want SB to push here. I min-raise because it looks to an aggro SB like I'm saying I can handle BB, but I don't want to risk busting. This is the perfect time for an aggro SB to resteal.

SB wants a situation where he pushes and BB folds, leaving you with a tough decision. If you limp BB won't necessarily think you're committed, so he may call SB's push given the pot odds and the greater probability you will fold if he folds. If SB knows this it makes it less likely for him to push. Actually, raising to 1000 is probably better because it gives SB a nice side pot even if BB calls, making SB more likely to push regardless of what he thinks BB will do.

[citanul]

hm, there's some work to be done here about icm stuff when there's chips in the pot, but do you really want the action to be:

you raise, sb pushes, bb folds, action to you?

at some point the other guys are short enough that if you put the big stacked aggressor on a reasonable range, you're supposed to fold hands as good as qq because of the soon to bust guy. i haven't even considered putting this stuff through icm, but i'd think that the next variation on eastbay's program could have something to help with this.

this is intimately related to pushing is good and calling is bad.

i push preflop here, especially at the higher level games. i don't do much of the double reverse psychology stuff preflop. except for rare spots, when the blinds are large, all my moves look the same. most of the thinking players i've played with would see a trap like this a mile away i'd think, part of the small player pool problem.

just some random thoughts.

citanul

[kyro]

If a player I recognize limps for 1/4 of his stack UTG, I'm running for the hills.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
If a player I recognize limps for 1/4 of his stack UTG, I'm running for the hills.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep.

same if they miniraise for 1/2 of their stack, or junk like that.

edit: if i know them to be a habitual minraiser or idiot limper, this all changes, clearly.

citanul

[Sykes]

This and other posts here is a joke, right? Easy push.

[Unarmed]

...and good random thoughts cit.

I've done this exactly once, against a guy (whom I noted was 4-tabling) when I had AA. It worked wonderfully. However, AA certainly isn't QQ, and while I *think* I raise, SB rams any two, BB folds, I call with QQ is a good thing, I haven't ran the numbers. I'm definitely not pulling this with anything but QQ/KK/AA, and its probably more like only AA in practice. I just felt like making a reply that actually contained some thought given the question didn't contain any. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Another thought would be, if you don't do this at the 215s because you opponents read it for a monster, have you considered doing it with junk? (forget this case, BB is way too short) I have often wondered if there are situations where a min raise actually has more FE than a push...

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
This and other posts here is a joke, right? Easy push.

[/ QUOTE ]

do note, the post you responded to is talking about another situation entirely than the one presented in the original post. clearly he couldn't be reacting to another player limping utg, as in the op's hand, he's utg.

also, to anyone and everyone who responds in this thread with "easy push," you should realize you're adding nothing to the conversation. clearly op knows that "hey, qq's really good, i should push." he's asking if have reasoning behind push or other plays they might make to try to get extra chips in the middle, etc.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
...and good random thoughts cit.

I've done this exactly once, against a guy (whom I noted was 4-tabling) when I had AA. It worked wonderfully. However, AA certainly isn't QQ, and while I *think* I raise, SB rams any two, BB folds, I call with QQ is a good thing, I haven't ran the numbers. I'm definitely not pulling this with anything but QQ/KK/AA, and its probably more like only AA in practice. I just felt like making a reply that actually contained some thought given the question didn't contain any. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Another thought would be, if you don't do this at the 215s because you opponents read it for a monster, have you considered doing it with junk? (forget this case, BB is way too short) I have often wondered if there are situations where a min raise actually has more FE than a push...

[/ QUOTE ]

yah, i've used small raises in odd spots for both reasons you cited,

a) semi-thinking player doesn't realize it's a trap and just continues to bully
b) use it to generate more folding equity than my standard pushes because it looks SO weird.

i think i mentioned that "except in rare cases" all my best look the same. the rare cases are there, and are usually there to exploit some kind of donkish play or the other that people to act behind me (or hey, some donk who limped sometimes) has evidenced himself to be capable of.

citanul

[NotReady]

It's not a joke. I pushed, something bad happened, and I've been second guessing ever since. All input much appreciated.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not a joke. I pushed, something bad happened, and I've been second guessing ever since. All input much appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

to quell your mind, there's nothing wrong with pushing. some may advocate plays other than pushing as "even better," but pushing is good here. sometimes the guy with more chips than you has aces. it happens. just remember, it's all just downward variance.

pushing -> +EV, the only debate going on here is if there is something that is >+EV.

citanul

[NotReady]

SB had AJo, called, flop is AJ. The reason I've been second guessing is because I had a virtual lock on the money. With Big Stack behind me and a very short stack still in, I usually tighten up quite a lot. My first instinct here was to actually fold, but that lasted about 1/10,000 th of a second. JJ or TT would have taken me a bit longer.

Two follow-up questions, given you have a virtual lock on the money.

1. If you knew SB had AJo, would you still push?
2. If you knew he would call, would you still push?

I believe if I was certain of 2, I wouldn't push, even if I'm a fairly big favorite. Is that wrong?

If I understand correctly, Eastbay's program would solve this, and I may get it sometime, but I'm still a relative noob to SnG, and am not ready to spend that much yet. Started about a year ago, but just recently came back and have about 400 total at mostly 11 with some 22.