Wild wild B&M

[radek2166]

Just spent 13 weeks in Vegas man the games were good.

Well I get back to Phoenix. Last night I figure I am going to head down to Vee Quiva.

Honest to god it was 7 to the flop 70% of the time 4/8 game.

Loose aggro game UTG an older man with sunglasses and a hat Raises with 78o. 7 callers to the flop.

I am just haveing a horrid night can get anything going. Flush draws missing tptk no good beta by either a rivered 2pair runner runner flush or the rivered gut shot.


Finnaly I get K's UTG+1 limps a loose passive type. I raise caller caller I mutter Jesus loves you call that raise!!!! MP3 rerasies fold Button calls 3cold. SB calls BB calls UTG calls I reraise Every calls for 28 SB. sound right?


Flop comes Q32 rainbow. UTG bets, I raise Fold Fold Call Call fold fold call. for 18 BB

Turn comes King completes the rainbow. UTG Checks I bet 2 callers. 3 to the river for 21BB.

River 3. I bet button raises me UTG folds I reraise buttong calls and flipsover 10 3o MHIG.


The question I have is how do you play in games like this where the call 1 2 3 4 bets with any 2 cards. It was just incredible. I was not playing my A game in hindsight I do know that. I do know I was still playing tight and argro just not playing my best.

I do terrible in games like this due to the fact I never know what I am up aggainst. I saw underparis call to the river. and raise on the river. I saw Q5o raise preflop. I just saw some incredible things.

[itsmarty]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
I saw underparis call to the river. and raise on the river. I saw Q5o raise preflop. I just saw some incredible things.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

Sorry, got a little distracted /images/graemlins/smile.gif Stick to big pairs and suited connecters, don't get sucked into playing trash just because you see it winning, and don't bluff.

Martin

[Bremen]

How do you play in that game? Drink lots of caffeine and don't leave until they pry your cold dead fingers off the rail.

[radek2166]

I get that part of it. I just ended up tilting a bit. That really threw me off. I have played solid in B&amp;M , yesterday just drove me insane.

[RydenStoompala]

Bladerunner references are always good.

What to say when you suck out against a rock?

Wake up! Time to die.

[GreywolfNYC]

You just described the 10-20 games in Atlantic City. The really atrocious play is still rampant at the low end of the middle limits too.

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

I know it's not he point of the thread, but what do you think about calling the flop and raising the donkbettor on the turn, that is if you think he'll bet out again?

-Craig

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
I know it's not he point of the thread, but what do you think about calling the flop and raising the donkbettor on the turn, that is if you think he'll bet out again?

-Craig

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. The pot is too big to "protect" your hand on the flop as the pot is so big that calling 2 bets cold is correct even with gutshots. But if you wait til the turn to raise their calls will be incorrect, unless it gets raised by someone else behind you on flop and all call. Of course, an argument for raising the flop for value can be made.

See SSHE page 163.

[InkyWretch]

[ QUOTE ]
You just described the 10-20 games in Atlantic City. The really atrocious play is still rampant at the low end of the middle limits too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that the case in every casino right now?

[radek2166]

You know I really need help here. Like I said I allmost craped my pants when he raised me on the river. Not cause I was worried about quad 3's. Because i could not believe when he hit trips he rasied. I rerasied he looked at me. I looked at him. He nodded then called. I was thinking What a phucking idiot. Can games like this be beatin?

One other question I am on the button I got four to a king high flush. Pot is huge. I raise the 4 people. Is that a bit to laggy? Or is that a good value raise?

[SNOWBALL138]

Raising the flop doesn't protect your hand from any hands that you are afraid of.
Gutshots, and 5 outers can call your flop raise profitably, but can't call your turn raise profitably.
My plan would have been to call the flop and then raise UTG's turn bet.

[SNOWBALL138]

Is your flush draw 2 suited cards in your hand? If so, raising the flop from late position is a straight value play, and it may even earn you a free card.

Don't raise the turn though. You are more than a 4-1 dog, so you would need 5 callers in front of you to make it a sensible play.

[radek2166]

Rasied the flop and the turn. 4 in front of me

[xxxxx]

When it is seven to a flop, the donks don't know or care if their call is "correct".

[radek2166]

I was on the boutton they all limp to me. What range of hands can I rasie with here?

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
You just described the 10-20 games in Atlantic City. The really atrocious play is still rampant at the low end of the middle limits too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played where Radick is describing, the worst players I have ever seen. Honestly AC doesn't even come close, they are experts in comparison. An amazing player will have huge variance in this game, there is no way around it. HOWEVER it is hugely profitable over time with patience. Simple strategy is no bluffing (even cut down on some semi-bluffs), don't bet unimproved overcards into a full field, bet relentlessly on the river for value, and have immense patience.

My all time favorite suckout was in this room, guy to my right cold called a cap on the button when I raised under the gun with AA (capper had something like 55). River came something like 34T96, the idiot was holding 57o. As he was gloating with a huge 30BB pot, he turned to me and said "I knew everyone else was playing overcards, so I figured I had the best chance if the flop was low cards".

I should have asked him for his phone number, so I can fly out to Arizona every time he plays /images/graemlins/smile.gif

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[radek2166]

Man This game was just incredible. It felt more like craps than poker.

Now I know the semibluff wont get me free cards. I do know it will build a pot.

Favorite quote from the game was this.

Old hag to my right. everytime she would have floped something she lets the whole table know. Flop comes 277. She makes her face and says I would have won if I would have played. I said its oldem any two cards can win. She says I cant play 27. 5 second pause. I can if they are sooted.

[ThaHero]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You just described the 10-20 games in Atlantic City. The really atrocious play is still rampant at the low end of the middle limits too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played where Radick is describing, the worst players I have ever seen. Honestly AC doesn't even come close, they are experts in comparison. An amazing player will have huge variance in this game, there is no way around it. HOWEVER it is hugely profitable over time with patience. Simple strategy is no bluffing (even cut down on some semi-bluffs), don't bet unimproved overcards into a full field, bet relentlessly on the river for value, and have immense patience.

My all time favorite suckout was in this room, guy to my right cold called a cap on the button when I raised under the gun with AA (capper had something like 55). River came something like 34T96, the idiot was holding 57o. As he was gloating with a huge 30BB pot, he turned to me and said "I knew everyone else was playing overcards, so I figured I had the best chance if the flop was low cards".

I should have asked him for his phone number, so I can fly out to Arizona every time he plays /images/graemlins/smile.gif

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if I wanna take a chance on the variance, but wow, these games sound great! I think I might have to drive down to Phoenix one of these days. Only a few hours from L.A.

[smoore]

I love games like you describe. Lots of variance but about the only low limit where you can beat the rake reliably. Fasten your seatbelt and grab a handful of chips.

Lots of waiting until the turn to raise, call with some hands you would semibluff reasonable opposition with. You almost always have odds to limp with any pair as long as it's not too LAGgy. Big pairs tend to turn into just that... one pair. Play those multiway hands and you will get paid when they hit. I've seen four people call a royal flush holder who was raising to the river. Amazing... he won a 40BB or so pot and a nifty baseball hat.

Whee!

[radek2166]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You just described the 10-20 games in Atlantic City. The really atrocious play is still rampant at the low end of the middle limits too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played where Radick is describing, the worst players I have ever seen. Honestly AC doesn't even come close, they are experts in comparison. An amazing player will have huge variance in this game, there is no way around it. HOWEVER it is hugely profitable over time with patience. Simple strategy is no bluffing (even cut down on some semi-bluffs), don't bet unimproved overcards into a full field, bet relentlessly on the river for value, and have immense patience.

My all time favorite suckout was in this room, guy to my right cold called a cap on the button when I raised under the gun with AA (capper had something like 55). River came something like 34T96, the idiot was holding 57o. As he was gloating with a huge 30BB pot, he turned to me and said "I knew everyone else was playing overcards, so I figured I had the best chance if the flop was low cards".

I should have asked him for his phone number, so I can fly out to Arizona every time he plays /images/graemlins/smile.gif

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if I wanna take a chance on the variance, but wow, these games sound great! I think I might have to drive down to Phoenix one of these days. Only a few hours from L.A.

[/ QUOTE ]

They spread 3-6 4-8. 5-10 and 6-12 are on the board. I would love to get a 6-12 going. During d-back games the splash the ot 100 dollars for every run the dbacks score.

I am going to take a stab today if the pitching match up is good.

[radek2166]

The only thing That I have seen that was close to this game was the excalibur.

I was UTG with AK /images/graemlins/heart.gif I raise 7 callers I autobet the flop allrags,7 callers turn blank I check 7 checks, river all check. AK wins unimproved.

[callydrias]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I get back to Phoenix. Last night I figure I am going to head down to Vee Quiva.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll be up in Phoenix this weekend. I might have to check this place out. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
When it is seven to a flop, the donks don't know or care if their call is "correct".

[/ QUOTE ]


You are missing the point. That are not making a mistake by calling with a gutshot on the flop. Calling a flop raise with a gutshot/bottom pair is EV+ in this situation. If he waits until the turn to raise a possible UTG bet and they call with that same bottom pair/gutshot then that call is -EV. Of course, they will still call, because like you say they "don't care", but they will be making a mistake in calling from a EV+ standpoint and poker is all about exploiting your opponents mistakes.

[radek2166]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When it is seven to a flop, the donks don't know or care if their call is "correct".

[/ QUOTE ]


You are missing the point. That are not making a mistake by calling with a gutshot on the flop. Calling a flop raise with a gutshot/bottom pair is EV+ in this situation. If he waits until the turn to raise a possible UTG bet and they call with that same bottom pair/gutshot then that call is -EV. Of course, they will still call, because like you say they "don't care", but they will be making a mistake in calling from a EV+ standpoint and poker is all about exploiting your opponents mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel you. Itt looks like the way to play here is to rasie the trun not the flop? Unless I have a set or the such?

In vegas most of the games I played in were LP. Where here it is LA with a maniac or 2 thrown in. I play my worst poker against maniacs.

[Percula]

Sounds like the 4/8 (sometimes 6/12 or 10/20 if you can get the table to vote up the limit) big jackpot table at the Fort on a Friday or Saturday night after the nightly MTT has busted most of the field out(8 to 9'ish).

I have literally been in the 9/10 seat and not been able to see the chips/cards of the players in the 2 and 3 seat because the pot was so large!

My all time favorite... Seat 2, 3, and 4 are super LAGs they raise EVERY hand, often with it capped by the time seat 4 is done. I pickup 66 in LP and as per the last few hands it comes to me capped and repeatedly called, we get a family capped pot, yes NINE players to the flop. Flop comes 776 and I am a happy camper and even happier when it comes to me pre-capped. Turn 6! I am almost pissed myself, LOL and once again it comes to me pre-capped and still nine handed. River is a K, and it checks to the guy on my right who thank god bets, I raise and guess what it comes back to me capped! It took me 3 hands to get everything stacked. The only thing that would have made it better would have been someone having quad 7's so I could of had the bad beat jackpot.

I all seriousness... Here are a couple of things that have helped limit my variance at these wild, wild tables.

1) Play for trips or better, better more often than not.

2) Connected cards and suited connectors and suited high cards will make you some coin.

3) Forget about bluffing or check raising or anything other than betting out. Even if they notice, they will not care.

4) There are going to be some pissed off people at your table. Try to keep the table light and having fun, otherwise it can get bad for the game fast. The last thing you need is the super LAG(s) getting kicked because the old fart he has been nailing all night starts a fight with him.

5) DO NOT get married to your big hands, TPTK is rarely the best hand at the river. But bottom set is often the best hand on a non str8/flush board.

If you want a just as wild game with much bigger pots and less variance, play the 2 or 5 to 150 spread limit game.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
Just spent 13 weeks in Vegas man the games were good.

Well I get back to Phoenix. Last night I figure I am going to head down to Vee Quiva.

Honest to god it was 7 to the flop 70% of the time 4/8 game.

Loose aggro game UTG an older man with sunglasses and a hat Raises with 78o. 7 callers to the flop.

I am just haveing a horrid night can get anything going. Flush draws missing tptk no good beta by either a rivered 2pair runner runner flush or the rivered gut shot.


Finnaly I get K's UTG+1 limps a loose passive type. I raise caller caller I mutter Jesus loves you call that raise!!!! MP3 rerasies fold Button calls 3cold. SB calls BB calls UTG calls I reraise Every calls for 28 SB. sound right?


Flop comes Q32 rainbow. UTG bets, I raise Fold Fold Call Call fold fold call. for 18 BB

Turn comes King completes the rainbow. UTG Checks I bet 2 callers. 3 to the river for 21BB.

River 3. I bet button raises me UTG folds I reraise buttong calls and flipsover 10 3o MHIG.


The question I have is how do you play in games like this where the call 1 2 3 4 bets with any 2 cards. It was just incredible. I was not playing my A game in hindsight I do know that. I do know I was still playing tight and argro just not playing my best.

I do terrible in games like this due to the fact I never know what I am up aggainst. I saw underparis call to the river. and raise on the river. I saw Q5o raise preflop. I just saw some incredible things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Play tighter preflop. Never fold the river for a bet or two if you have even a middle pair hand. (That is how I would play this kind of table)

Greg

[xxxxx]

[ QUOTE ]
You are missing the point. That are not making a mistake by calling with a gutshot on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are missing the point. It is worse to give the donks a free card even if it is correct for them to call a bet.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

You gotta just hammer these people when you have a hand, like you did on the kings. However, You gotta realize that you're gonna get sucked out on a lot, and play according to the type of game you're in. Therefore you gotta go by the old saying "if you can't beat em, join em." The really big pots are taken down by straights, flushes, and boats. Play any pair, any position. Standard deal there, no set, no bet. Play big suited cards in any position, raise with the best hands of course. KJs is a monster in these games. So is Axs. Beware of smaller suited connectors tho, they often flop marginal hands which are difficult to play in highly aggressive multiway games. And in case i didn't make it clear before, HAMMER them when you've got the goods! This includes pumping up your monster draws in mega multiway pots. Also, remember your SD is going to go way up in these games. Overall they are as beatable as any other game, tho not especially more so in an hourly sense, but your SD will be higher for sure.

Or, you could just go to california, where every game is just like yours.

al