Hunting Rabbits at the Commerce: first trip to LA

[beetyjoose]

A few weeks back I was on a business trip in long beach and had asked for some advice from 2+2ers about card rooms in the Long Beach/LA area. The general consensus was to go to Commerce. I just wanted to thank everyone for the advice.

I ended up mostly playing the 200NL game which was excellent. Very loose, high action, etc. I was able play two sessions and ended up winning about $800 after all said and done. Everything was pretty standard as far as card rooms go, however one thing I found very odd was the amount of rabbit hunting going on.

I had only been playing for about an hour my first night there, and there was a little rivalry going on between two players next to me. Pretty standard stuff. Player 1 outdrew player 2 on a couple flush draws and won about $200 over the course of a few hands. Naturally player 2 is frustrated and the two of them are taking verbal jabs at each other. All standard stuff except for what followed.

Flop comes with two hearts and player 2 bets out. Player 1 calls. Turn comes a spade, player 2 bets out a very large bet relative to the pot. Player 1 thinks about it for a while and ends up folding. Player 1 looks at me and says "I had two hearts, another flush draw". Just as the dealer is about to scramble the deck player 1 exclaims "let me see that last card" and reaches for the deck and goes to flip over the last card himself! Player 2 yells "Don't let him see it!" The dealer stops the card from being turned over and player 2 demands for the floor to be called.

The manager comes over and hears what occurred, he tells player 1 very apologetically that he has to leave. He tells him there is no rabbit hunting allowed and if another player calls him over he has to make him leave. I thought the situation was handled well by both the dealer and the floor.

I had never seen someone take a card and flip it himself at a casino. I was a bit surprised by this and was talking to a regular about it the next day. I told him the entire story and he was really surprised too. The only difference was that he was shocked that they threw him out. I admit that it sucks to be tossed out, but at the same time you can't be having people grabbing cards from the dealer.

Before I can even finish my sentence another player does the same exact thing. This time neither the other players nor the dealer try to stop the player. He continues to flip over the turn and the river. Play continues and now this rabbit hunting is occurring literally every other hand that is not making it to the river. Every time the same thing: the dealer leaves the cards out for the player to sift through.

I don't really mind rabbit hunting but this was getting ridiculous, especially for a place that has a rule posted that states "no rabbit hunting". It got to the point where players were rabbit hunting five cards when the action never made it to the flop. This may sound a bit over the top but it was starting to create a feeling of lawlessness at the table. It was as if the dealer wasn't in control at all. If nothing else it was slowing down the game considerably.

I play regularly at Foxwoods. I've played at a handful of casinos in Vegas. I wouldn't consider myself a seasoned veteran by any means, but I've played quite a bit and never seen anything like this.

Is this something that happens all the time at other casinos? Has anyone else had an experience like this before?

[shant]

I see this regularly and have never heard of anyone speaking up against it. Usually the dealer will even fan the deck towards the person who asked to rabbit hunt so they can burn and turn themselves. I'm speaking from experiences in the LA rooms like Commerce and HPC.

[Origami]

What Shant said....happens all the time.

[renodoc]

I've only played there once (in the 200NL game) and I saw this happen all the time. It bordered on absurd.

[Randy_Refeld]

This is why the deler should muck the stub when the hand is over. When peopel have asked me to show them a card I have no card to show them. In some places where they are unfamiliar with correct procedures they tell the delaer to drop the deck so they cn pick it back up.

[ChicagoTroy]

I play in East Chicago, I've seen it once, and it was from a west coaster. Thought it was bizarre, didn't know they had a name for it.

If anything, it encourages loose play. I guess.

[Rick Nebiolo]

On a scale of 1 to 100 of "irregularities" (1 being most important) that occur in Los Angeles small no limit games, I'd rate controlling rabit hunting about 98. Generally opponents who rabit hunt are players who you want to play against, and as long as it is done only occasionally and at the end of the hand I wouldn't be that concerned.

That said, some of the games in LA are out of control on the other 99 most improtant things. For example, half the table sometimes appears to be auditioning for Sexton's job on the WPT - they all feel they have the right to speculate about the hand in play. People routinely act out of turn.

Here's an example was from a couple days ago. In a $200 NL game there were a bunch of limpers to me in the small blind. I raise about pot with a big pair, loose player UTG is considering calling but looks left and all five limpers had folded (the problem mostly being caused by seat nine, the second limper who caused the chain reaction). I very politely asked that people take care to act in turn. The players sort of apologized.

About five minutes later I'm watching a big pot. Seat 3 bets into a decent size pot and seat 7 puts in a big raise (both are deep). Naturally there is some verbal speculation about the hand by half the table. Action is on seat 9 who holds his hand so only seat 7 and 8 can see it!!!. This was so over the line I do speak up and get verbally berated by seat 9 (he essentially said I should take my rule book and shove it up my ass). This was an interesting comment considering he is a lawyer by profession. He is also considered one of the "nice guys" at the table by many. I merely replied that this isn't a minor transgression and considering the size of the pot he was out of line. But I let it go, as this is life in LA and I wasn't on home turf.

~ Rick

[andyfox]

Do you think there are more irregularities in no-limit than in limit?

In my normal limit game, there isn't much rabbit-hunting and what there is is usually good-natured.

When I play in Las Vegas,there's much more speculation about a player's hand while the hand is still in play than I hear in L.A., at least in my game. Usually it'll be multi-way and when somebody check-raises, the first guy to act after the check-rasier says something like "I can't beat your set, nice hand, I'm folding my Ace." Nice.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think there are more irregularities in no-limit than in limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, probably as a result of the no limit shown on TV and in a way it is both good and bad.

The good is that most of these new players are very good natured and excited about their poker and it shows in their manner. The bad is that things do at times spin a bit out of control; that said, usually the worse the etiquette the better the game /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

The incident I described above was most unusual in that rarely is it my way to get in a quarrel, but on this occasion it was very much over the line and the player in seat 9 was very much into getting under peoples skin and has shown on many occasions his utter disregard for what is fair (I've played with him before and am acquainted with his antics). I forget the exact board and hand but seats 9's cards (that he chose to show to seat 3 and fold) were of great importance. Had they only been known to one party it would have been a great wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
In my normal limit game, there isn't much rabbit-hunting and what there is is usually good-natured.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is my experience also which is why I care so little about it. At the Bike controlling rabbit hunting somehow became somewhat of a major project about a year ago. For example, on every shuffle machine a sticker was affixed proclaiming:

"No abuse.
English only.
No rabbit hunting."

My guess is we both would agree that controlling abuse is quite noble.

How and to what degree controlling the use of languages other than English at the table in multi-cultural LA would be a subject of a long thread or essay. My views have softened, let it suffice to say that I would like to see it controlled within reason while the hand is in play while not offending the perpetrators.

By putting the admonition not to rabbit hunt at the same level as the other two diminishes the others, as I would think most players who understand what makes a good game also understand that rabbit hunting does little harm.

[ QUOTE ]
When I play in Las Vegas,there's much more speculation about a player's hand while the hand is still in play than I hear in L.A., at least in my game. Usually it'll be multi-way and when somebody check-raises, the first guy to act after the check-raiser says something like "I can't beat your set, nice hand, I'm folding my Ace." Nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just the local Las Vegas nit culture we all love to run over on our visits. Years ago when I could visit the land of sin I've made plays that raise eyebrows but barely are noticed here. Yet Clarkmeister thinks I'm a nit. Damn him /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

In proofing I just noted a sort of weird tone/style in my response to your post - perhaps it's because I just woke from a short but lovely nap on the porch, lulled to sleep reading the intoxicating adventures of Patrick O'Brien's heroes Aubrey and Maturin.

I'm still six books behind Hero though.

Regards,

Rick

[Matt Flynn]

first time through the books?

lucky you.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
first time through the books?

lucky you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Girlfriend/Hero started the first when I was on number seven. She completed them all while I am just starting "Truelove" (number fifteen I think).

In fairness, she has a lot more time to read than I do /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

Rick

[jkinetic]

I usually play at the Mecca's bigger NL games, 20/40, 40/80, 50/100 and you would not believe the stuff we are allowed to get away with.

Technically the rule is if any one single player objects to something, then whatever that player objects to becomes dead but in my experience that rarely happens.

We are usually allowed to rabbit hunt, make deals and run the deck until the stub runs dry.

There is a certain amount of lawlessness about it, but I kind of think it is cool.

It is the Wild Wild West out here, Commerce must live up to that reputation. I do believe Wyatt Earp works part time as a floorman at Commerce.

I have seen a few beefs about the deal making that goes on during these no limit games and apparently the deal making is encouraged by management. I have heard with my own ears, Jerry telling the floorpeople that this is allowed and whatever the players agree to is cool.

But I generally do not recommend rabbit hunting, sometimes ignorance is just bliss.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
We are usually allowed to rabbit hunt, make deals and run the deck until the stub runs dry.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with rabbit hunting is you might expose a card someone was representing in their hand so you just learned he was bluffing.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We are usually allowed to rabbit hunt, make deals and run the deck until the stub runs dry.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with rabbit hunting is you might expose a card someone was representing in their hand so you just learned he was bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reality is that you would see objections if decent players are rabit hunting for information. But that rarely happens, it's usually the lunatic action players just looking to see if they would have gotten lucky.

~ Rick

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
The reality is that you would see objections if decent players are rabit hunting for information. But that rarely happens, it's usually the lunatic action players just looking to see if they would have gotten lucky.


[/ QUOTE ]

That of course is correct, but the decent players are still at the table and might gain info on accident.

[PukaPlaya]

Be veddy veddy qwiet.

[beetyjoose]

[ QUOTE ]
By putting the admonition not to rabbit hunt at the same level as the other two diminishes the others, as I would think most players who understand what makes a good game also understand that rabbit hunting does little harm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I don't think rabbit hunting itself is a big problem. If every now and then a player asks the dealer "could I see the river" and the dealer quickly burns and turns the last card, scrambles the deck and moves on, thats perfectly fine with me.

The problem I have is when every other hand a player in the 8 seat is extending his body over my chips and reaching across the entire table to flip through every card in the deck to find his one-outer that would have completed his royal flush.

It just seems asinine to me that it is fine for the dealer to fan out the deck for the player in the 8 seat to sift through the cards, but it is not ok for the dealer to quickly flip the river because "the dealer is not allowed to rabbit hunt".

Either make the rule that rabbit hunting is allowed, and let the dealer do it. Or make the rule that it is not allowed, and no one can do it.

[jskills]

Rabbit hunting is a BAD PRACTICE plain and simple.

In permitting it, you allow players to not only see the cards that were to come, but in seeing those cards you can now know that a player that did not have to show his cards did not hold those cards that were rabbit hunted.

For example, suppose player 1 run a bluff on player 2, representing the nut flush, and the rabbit hunted card shows the Ace of the flush suit, thus proving a player was bluffing without actually paying to see his cards. This is just one example of why this can be bad for the game - I am sure there are many other reasons ...

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By putting the admonition not to rabbit hunt at the same level as the other two diminishes the others, as I would think most players who understand what makes a good game also understand that rabbit hunting does little harm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I don't think rabbit hunting itself is a big problem. If every now and then a player asks the dealer "could I see the river" and the dealer quickly burns and turns the last card, scrambles the deck and moves on, thats perfectly fine with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

And it is with most people. My paragraph above would be better had I inserted the word "occasional" before the phrase "rabbit hunting does little harm".

[ QUOTE ]
The problem I have is when every other hand a player in the 8 seat is extending his body over my chips and reaching across the entire table to flip through every card in the deck to find his one-outer that would have completed his royal flush.

It just seems asinine to me that it is fine for the dealer to fan out the deck for the player in the 8 seat to sift through the cards, but it is not ok for the dealer to quickly flip the river because "the dealer is not allowed to rabbit hunt".

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. But the action you describe by seat 8 above typically generates numerous objections, and deep within every rule book I've seen you will find a rule against rabbit hunting. So the dealer would be able to stop it when it matters (i.e. when it annoys people or slows down the game significantly).

[ QUOTE ]
Either make the rule that rabbit hunting is allowed, and let the dealer do it. Or make the rule that it is not allowed, and no one can do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's already not allowed per the rules and rarely occurs in most limit games, when it does it is usually a "live one" who is curious and it is such a relatively insignificant transgression that the wiser players don't object and the dealers allow it to slide unless there is an objection.

IOW, it would be "nitish" to object to an occasional rabbit hunt by the players who provide the most action. OTOH, it would be reasonable to object to constant rabbit hunting, rabbit hunting in the middle of the hand, or rabbit hunting done by the player rather than by the dealer by request of a player (a more sensible/important rule would be for the player never to touch other cards, the stub, or the muck, etc.).

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reality is that you would see objections if decent players are rabbit hunting for information. But that rarely happens, it's usually the lunatic action players just looking to see if they would have gotten lucky.


[/ QUOTE ]

That of course is correct, but the decent players are still at the table and might gain info on accident.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. That said, it's unlikely that the "hunted" card will be significant. Generally, the players get information equally (an obvious exception would be a case where a player secretly throwing away the second nut flush finds that the nut flush card was out of play).

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Rabbit hunting is a BAD PRACTICE plain and simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. But there are many other "bad practices" that are far worse that need to be controlled more effectively. So it is not "plain and simple" in the real world.

[ QUOTE ]
In permitting it, you allow players to not only see the cards that were to come, but in seeing those cards you can now know that a player that did not have to show his cards did not hold those cards that were rabbit hunted.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not permitted (refer to my response to beetyjoose and Randy Redfeld above).

[ QUOTE ]
For example, suppose player 1 run a bluff on player 2, representing the nut flush, and the rabbit hunted card shows the Ace of the flush suit, thus proving a player was bluffing without actually paying to see his cards. This is just one example of why this can be bad for the game - I am sure there are many other reasons ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm against rabbit hunting. I've never rabbit hunted. I'm glad there is already a somewhat loosely enforced rule against it. But it isn't as important a rule/policy as 1) "act in turn to protect the action of others", 2) "verbal and physical abuse of dealers and players is prohibited" and some others I don't have time to get into.

Let me try to make a (probably poor) analogy. Freeways and highways have posted speed limits and signs indicating that the right lane at a certain point is "exit only". They also have signs that indicate where exits lead to and so on. It makes sense that they have these signs and this is good.

But there are many other laws pertaining to freeway travel. Some are obviously important (e.g., don't change five lanes all at once while cutting off others). Don't drink and drive. Pay attention to road conditions (perhaps we should add "and not your cell phone conversation" /images/graemlins/smile.gif ). But it is reasonable that we generally don't have signs posted for these laws, as it would diminish the stress on the more important laws or just state the obvious (e.g., I think cutting across five lines in heavy traffic is far more deadly than speeding in light traffic).

For political and practical reasons I rarely speak up against rabbit hunting as a player (when it's done excessively others will anyway). OTOH, I will often stand up (often alone) against dealer and player abuse and gross actions out of turn.

Regards,

Rick

[ShadowBJ21]

The biggest problem with this "bad practices" in L.A. is that the dealers are plain bad (or just bad educated). I never saw so much mistakes by dealers as in Commerce live games and Bike tournaments.

In the live games lots of these "bad practices" happened (like showing cards to the next player during the game and of course rabbit hunting) and none of the dealers made any effort to control the game. They had enough trouble to figure out their own work.
In the tourney it wasn't so much bad practices but huge mistakes (how to handle side potts or action that happend in the wrong order). Good thing was that we had some experienced people at the table that were able to correct the dealer early enough (so there was no need to call the floor everytime). But in a three hour tournament this can get really annoying.

Shadow

[beetyjoose]

[ QUOTE ]
The biggest problem with this "bad practices" in L.A. is that the dealers are plain bad (or just bad educated). I never saw so much mistakes by dealers as in Commerce live games and Bike tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more. I couldn't believe how long it took them to do simple tasks. They have shuffling machines and they still take forever just to deal the cards. Several times they got involved in conversations with regulars and lost track of whose action it was. Which directly led to people acting out of turn.