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View Full Version : Your play here....


GtrHtr
05-31-2005, 11:40 AM
I'm really having a tough time with middle pairs in the early levels and didn't really like limping here but honestly didn't know what to do.

Post flop, I'm completely confused by the reraise and then re-reraise by UTG+1 and then the BB. I can't put either on 99 but maybe an overpair or A9, K9.

No real reads yet.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t40 (8 handed) converter

Hero (t2270)
SB (t2710)
BB (t1395)
UTG (t310)
UTG+1 (t3480)
MP1 (t1040)
MP2 (t1810)
CO (t1985)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

1 fold, UTG+1 calls t40, 1 fold, MP2 calls t40, 1 fold, Hero calls t40, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t200) 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets t40, MP2 calls t40, Hero raises to t80, SB folds, BB calls t80, UTG+1 raises to t120, MP2 folds, Hero calls t40, BB raises to t330, UTG+1 calls t210, Hero calls t210.

I was thinking push here but again was thinking WTF?

What is your play here...

MrX
05-31-2005, 11:46 AM
post deleted

kyro
05-31-2005, 11:48 AM
1) Call and look to fill up on turn. If not, and BB bets out big, fold.

2) Beat yourself for minraising the flop.

It should be pretty obvious that BB has 86 here about 95% of the time.

bluefeet
05-31-2005, 11:54 AM
could be wrong, but i would put BB on a straight. it would have sucked, but i would have folded to BB's raise t330.

you're only T160 into the pot at this point, and you are still in great standing. a chance you're still ahead vs. an overpair, baby set, A9, etc. but there is far too much action on the flop for my liking.

mlagoo
05-31-2005, 12:14 PM
The only problem is that at this point you want to see a cheap showdown, and there is very little chance of that. I think I grudgingly call BB's final raise on the flop, praying I fill up, and then fold to his inevitable all-in on the turn. If by some miracle it checks to you, take the free card and hope to fill up again. I probably call a small river value bet from the BB here, but I'll fold to most reasonable bets at this point.

Karak567
05-31-2005, 12:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]

It should be pretty obvious that BB has 86 here about 95% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're joking, right?

kyro
05-31-2005, 12:15 PM
Joking? Not really. Exaggerating? Yeah probably.

Honestly though, put BB on a hand. That is exactly how the majority of players would play 86.

2planka
05-31-2005, 12:22 PM
PF limp is okay.

Very poor flop play. You're behind 99 and 86. Min raising accomplishes nothing here. I like a pot size raise.

Push when the action is back to you. The pot is large and the board is draw heavy. If you're shown 86 then it's no big deal - you have a redraw and well, he got lucky. If you're called and shown 9x, 2 pair, or AA-TT then good for you. If you're shown 99 just type "nh" and fire up the next one.

Karak567
05-31-2005, 12:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Joking? Not really. Exaggerating? Yeah probably.

Honestly though, put BB on a hand. That is exactly how the majority of players would play 86.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding here is still a crime. Push it.

2planka
05-31-2005, 12:33 PM
Kryo -

If BB has 86 then I lose my stack if my redraw doesn't hit.

The mistakes on the flop are the bigger issue. The OP tried to get cute with a min raise (a pet peeve) and then a pretty straight forward hand got tricky.

He can atone for his flop sins by pushing when the action is back to him. This is the only play, IMO.

If this is a big time MTT then the decision is much tougher. In a SNG structure, though, you have to push this.

Moonsugar
05-31-2005, 12:40 PM
I think you can call here like you did and then all in after BB leads out with 2 pair and UTG calls/raises with AA.

Maybe UTG has 99, but he is just as likely to have AA IMO. You want to keep BB in this pot as long as possible. (Not like he is going anywhere with his stack/hand/pot size though).

nokona13
05-31-2005, 12:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
PF limp is okay.

Very poor flop play. You're behind 99 and 86. Min raising accomplishes nothing here. I like a pot size raise.

Push when the action is back to you. The pot is large and the board is draw heavy. If you're shown 86 then it's no big deal - you have a redraw and well, he got lucky. If you're called and shown 9x, 2 pair, or AA-TT then good for you. If you're shown 99 just type "nh" and fire up the next one.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I'm thinking here. With the minraise and teh ~1/2 pot raise behind your own minraise, is there serious disagreement here that you're going to the felt? In a deep stacked ring game, obviously you'd have to think about this more. What if you made the pot-raise in the first place and then BB came over the top on the c/r? Is this a call? I could see many players makign this move with 97, maybe 75, certainly 55, and obviously 86 and 99, maybe even JJ-TT, though I'd guess many would raise there after all those limps.

2planka
05-31-2005, 12:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You want to keep BB in this pot as long as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is wrong. You should want to win this pot. That should be the only objective.

Moonsugar
05-31-2005, 12:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Joking? Not really. Exaggerating? Yeah probably.

Honestly though, put BB on a hand. That is exactly how the majority of players would play 86.

[/ QUOTE ]

And 2 pair. But 2 pair possibilities are more numerous than 86 possibilities.

Scuba Chuck
05-31-2005, 12:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Post flop, I'm completely confused by the reraise and then re-reraise by UTG+1 and then the BB. I can't put either on 99 but maybe an overpair or A9, K9.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hand ranges are 99, 55, 89, 56, TT, JJ, A9, K9, J9, T9, 97, 75, 68 and sometimes a misplayed AA.

What are your thoughts as soon as you see this flop? My thoughts are that I'm going for broke on this hand. I want all my chips in the middle as soon as possible. This board is a little too coordinated for me. On the flop, there's only two hands you really fear and that's 99 or 86. IMO, you need to be aggressive. Otherwise, fold your small pocket pair preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets t40, MP2 calls t40, Hero raises to t80, SB folds, BB calls t80, UTG+1 raises to t120, MP2 folds, Hero calls t40, BB raises to t330, UTG+1 calls t210, Hero calls t210.


[/ QUOTE ]

I seriously think it's a mistake to call this bet. These guys want to play. BB is the only hand you're worried about here. UTG+1's hand you have beat. The fact that it's the BB means that he could literally have any hand here, like 86. Very disconcerting.

Before the final t210 call, you need to decide. Am I going to play this hand more, or do I fold. If you are not going to play this hand anymore, fold now. Don't call the t210. I think there's a lot to be said for playing a little defense here. But, since you called, I find that to be the worst decision of the three possible. If you're going to play, play = PUSH. Don't let a 6 or an 8 hit without making the other guys pay to play.

When it comes back to you on the BB raise, raise again. Frankly, I'd bet the pot or push at this stage.

Scuba

Moonsugar
05-31-2005, 12:51 PM
I am talking from turn on. I was not making any commentary on the flop play.

kyro
05-31-2005, 12:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Joking? Not really. Exaggerating? Yeah probably.

Honestly though, put BB on a hand. That is exactly how the majority of players would play 86.

[/ QUOTE ]

And 2 pair. But 2 pair possibilities are more numerous than 86 possibilities.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an incredibly odd way to play 2 pair on a coordinated board.

FWIW, I'm running terrible and seeing monsters everywhere. At this rate, I'd advocate folding KK on the bubble to a shortstack all-in because I'd be certain they had AA. So take my advice with a grain of salt. I just can't see any other hand but 86 here a large percentage of the time.

Scuba Chuck
05-31-2005, 12:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It should be pretty obvious that BB has 86 here about 95% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's completely false. I'm willing to admit that BB has 99, 55, 86, 95, 97, or 57 here 95% of the time (95% might still be a little high). This range makes this a completely different decision than assuming your opponenet always has the nuts. The fact that BB could have two pair or an underset makes this decision much more mathematical.

I have found it a mistake to always assume villain has the nuts because that's what you fear.

Scuba

BTW, if BB "flashed" you 86, I would still call the t210 bet. The implied odds are enough for you if you hit on the turn.

2planka
05-31-2005, 12:55 PM
Kryo -

Not picking on you, but I'd have to be 100% certain that he had 86... and even then I may still push! The reason for this is the restricted structure of the SNG. It simply doesn't reward "big laydowns."

As for running bad, beat up a 6 max game for a while. Does wonders for the ole ego.

Scuba Chuck
05-31-2005, 12:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The reason for this is the restricted structure of the SNG. It simply doesn't reward "big laydowns."


[/ QUOTE ]

I was going along with what you were saying until this statement. This is false. Very early in SNG tournaments, "big laydowns" are rewarded in ROI. It may not be rewarded in $/hr. But I don't think you were referring to $/hr.

adanthar
05-31-2005, 01:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It should be pretty obvious that BB has 86 here about 95% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's completely false. I'm willing to admit that BB has 99, 55, or 86 95% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP; he doesn't have 2 pair. 2 pair would put in the second raise, but not a fourth. OK, MAYBE 97, if you hadn't had sevens instead of fives.

Kyro and KilgoreTrout are both right; the flop play is by far the worst part of the hand and this situation should never happen. But now that it has, your best bet is to get to showdown as cheap as possible. You are way ahead of UTG+1 (who probably has an overpair, A9, etc. - doesn't matter) but most likely way behind the BB with 55 the only hand you beat.

I'd call a decent turn bet (because if the board pairs, you probably take his stack; hope he doesn't have nines) and fold to a push.

Disclaimer: If this is $10 or under you may as well just push yourself because the third guy will call and give you odds to fill up, plus the increased chance BB's a donkey.

kyro
05-31-2005, 01:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Kryo -

Not picking on you, but I'd have to be 100% certain that he had 86... and even then I may still push! The reason for this is the restricted structure of the SNG. It simply doesn't reward "big laydowns."

As for running bad, beat up a 6 max game for a while. Does wonders for the ole ego.

[/ QUOTE ]

6max was the beginning of my downswing. Lost 5 buy-ins. Then tanked at the SNGs. I don't think that would be the best cure.

And I agree. I very rarely make "the big laydown." I think here I would puss out and do it though.

2planka
05-31-2005, 01:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I was going along with what you were saying until this statement. This is false. Very early in SNG tournaments, "big laydowns" are rewarded in ROI. It may not be rewarded in $/hr. But I don't think you were referring to $/hr.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're right. I was just about to add that there's a point of no return around the 15BB range. Good catch.

GtrHtr
05-31-2005, 01:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What are your thoughts as soon as you see this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Scuba,

My thoughts were "BINGO!" and I'm getting action. The reaction is what threw me for a loop. Min bet, call, weak raise by me thinking I'll keep at least BB in the hand. Then lots of action and I'm thinking WTF? The call (t210) was weak and not usual for me but at the same time I'm trying to sort it all out in my head. I assumed that UTG+1 limped in with Ax or something along those lines but the BB action has me split between 99/86 or he's trying to steal the pot.

What I needed to do was stop and think before acting and not insta-call and then think.

Scuba Chuck
05-31-2005, 01:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It should be pretty obvious that BB has 86 here about 95% of the time.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That's completely false. I'm willing to admit that BB has 99, 55, or 86 95% of the time.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



FYP; he doesn't have 2 pair. 2 pair would put in the second raise, but not a fourth. OK, MAYBE 97, if you hadn't had sevens instead of fives.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adanthar, I don't agree with your reasoning YET, and would like to discuss further. Let's review the betting first.

[ QUOTE ]
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets t40, MP2 calls t40, Hero raises to t80, SB folds, BB calls t80, UTG+1 raises to t120, MP2 folds, Hero calls t40, BB raises to t330, UTG+1 calls t210, Hero calls t210.


[/ QUOTE ]

BB checks, calls, and raises. All of the betting has been VERY minimal/smallish. No real threatening bets have been made until BB makes one. I think it's a mistake to not include 97 as one of the very likely hands.

His first call I think is where the debate begins. And maybe this is where I can learn something. Are you saying by just calling hero's bet, that villain does not have two pair? I'm trying to put myself into villains shoes. If I had 97 (two pair) on this flop, I'd likely want to check-raise. But when it returns back to me, with a bet and a raise, would I want to call?

All right. Thanks. You're right. No way I'm just calling with a marginal hand like two pair. That being said, Adanthar, if you had 97, what would be your play? I think after hero makes the t80 raise, I would reraise here with 97, and fold to anymore heat.

Thanks in advance,
Scuba

Moonsugar
05-31-2005, 01:18 PM
I don't know the results of this hand but I think you are ahead here 50%+ v. BOTH OPPONENTS. And if you are behind the straight you have a redraw. Hell, you even have one v. 99! HAha.

I would play this by calling the big bet on the flop where you did and getting the most money in the pot on the turn. Keeping both of these guys in the pot keeps dead money in the pot and gives you better odds for the times you are behind.

jcm4ccc
05-31-2005, 01:29 PM
It's hard to put the BB on anything, with such strange betting on the flop.

Look at the pattern of betting as it comes to the BB.

First time:
SB checked

Second time:
UTG+1 minraised
MP2 called
Hero minraised

Third time:
UTG+1 minraised
Hero called

Nobody is betting like they have anything. If I am the BB, I might assume that 2 pair is good. I might assume that tens or jacks are good. I might assume that A9o is good.

The betting is a complete mess, and I think it's a huge mistake to fold a set to this crap. Push it, live with the consequences.

kyro
05-31-2005, 02:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is betting like they have anything. If I am the BB, I might assume that 2 pair is good. I might assume that tens or jacks are good. I might assume that A9o is good.

The betting is a complete mess, and I think it's a huge mistake to fold a set to this crap. Push it, live with the consequences.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming JJ is good on this board with this action is a terrible, terrible assumption.

And do you really think people min-reraise with crap often? I realize this is an $11 (I think?) but even my idiot friends in my home game would know that A9 is way behind here.

Jimbobobb
05-31-2005, 02:33 PM
Put yourself in BB's shoes. So far he's seen nobody make any really big moves on this flop. Ok someone min bet, that could literally mean anything. Alright another person min-raised, hooray they have top pair maybe. BB could be thinking that his overpair or two pair look pretty good here, and decides to wait til the turn and roll out his fancy slowplay of his 'monster', so he calls. Ok someone min-raised again, but they only min-raised, that means nothing. A lot of money has been put in the pot, I guess I'll make my move now. And they'll do this with MANY MANY MANY hands you beat. I think the main problem here is everyone is assuming this person is a solid player, because they themselves are solid players, and can't see players making these strange moves with all sorts of crap. Push the flop. Will better hands fold? heck no, but there are only two of those. Will worse hands call? Heck yes, and there are buttloads of those.

jcm4ccc
05-31-2005, 02:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is betting like they have anything. If I am the BB, I might assume that 2 pair is good. I might assume that tens or jacks are good. I might assume that A9o is good.

The betting is a complete mess, and I think it's a huge mistake to fold a set to this crap. Push it, live with the consequences.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming JJ is good on this board with this action is a terrible, terrible assumption.

And do you really think people min-reraise with crap often? I realize this is an $11 (I think?) but even my idiot friends in my home game would know that A9 is way behind here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it's a terrible assumption. And the betting implies a bunch of terrible players.

There are a few situations in which I might fold a set on a ragged board. This ain't one of them.

pooh74
05-31-2005, 02:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]

This is an incredibly odd way to play 2 pair on a coordinated board.



[/ QUOTE ]

This is NOT a coordinated board by any stretch. As Im it sure has been pointed out, 86 and 99 are only two of many possible hands that would play it this way and I think given that you're ahead of a vast majority, calling/pushing is correct here.

Whether making "big laydowns" is correct or not early, this is not one of those times. Begin making this laydown consistently and see your ROI go down.

kyro
05-31-2005, 02:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is betting like they have anything. If I am the BB, I might assume that 2 pair is good. I might assume that tens or jacks are good. I might assume that A9o is good.

The betting is a complete mess, and I think it's a huge mistake to fold a set to this crap. Push it, live with the consequences.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming JJ is good on this board with this action is a terrible, terrible assumption.

And do you really think people min-reraise with crap often? I realize this is an $11 (I think?) but even my idiot friends in my home game would know that A9 is way behind here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it's a terrible assumption. And the betting implies a bunch of terrible players.

There are a few situations in which I might fold a set on a ragged board. This ain't one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think even the terriblest(yep, i said terriblest) of players merely calls with his JJ rather than raise. I could be overestimating the intelligence of these people though.

pokerlaw
05-31-2005, 03:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets t40, MP2 calls t40, Hero raises to t80, SB folds, BB calls t80, UTG+1 raises to t120, MP2 folds, Hero calls t40, BB raises to t330, UTG+1 calls t210, Hero calls t210.


[/ QUOTE ]


Before the final t210 call, you need to decide. Am I going to play this hand more, or do I fold. If you are not going to play this hand anymore, fold now. Don't call the t210. I think there's a lot to be said for playing a little defense here. But, since you called, I find that to be the worst decision of the three possible. If you're going to play, play = PUSH.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is NO reason that you should flat call this 210 bet. I would push and hope I dont see 86. Even if he does have 86, which is fairly likely, you still have outs.

Instead of that min raise, raise around the pot next time.

kyro
05-31-2005, 03:21 PM
I'm sorry. Maybe it's the difference of levels. Maybe I haven't played enough SNGs to see this type of hand enough. Maybe I'm just a terrible player and an spewing idiocy. But from my experience. A min-bet followed by 2 min-raises does not mean weakness. The BB would be a complete moron to make this raise with anything less than 97 in my opinion...and even that seems to be stretching it.

jcm4ccc
05-31-2005, 03:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
From my experience. A min-bet followed by 2 min-raises does not mean weakness.

[/ QUOTE ] That's right. All it means is that the players don't know how to play.

It's harder to put a bad player on a hand than a good player. That's why it's a mistake to fold this hand.

kyro
05-31-2005, 03:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From my experience. A min-bet followed by 2 min-raises does not mean weakness.

[/ QUOTE ] That's right. All it means is that the players don't know how to play.

It's harder to put a bad player on a hand than a good player. That's why it's a mistake to fold this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you to a point. What I'm saying is, BB would have to be worse than bad to raise like that without a solid hand.

Kurn, son of Mogh
05-31-2005, 03:27 PM
Make it about 400 to go on the flop. Why only minraise? Unless you're committed to folding to any pressure, all the minraise does is increase the probability that you'll get broke.

adanthar
05-31-2005, 04:49 PM
With 97, *as the BB*, I am probably not getting off it without a lot more evidence than a bunch of minbetting donkeys. The 3 bet is easy and I call a push or a 4 bet depending. But we know he probably doesn't have 97.

Next: The low limits have plenty of idiots. These idiots, though, are calling stations, LAG's who love to bluff at a scary board, people who randomly raise 62o, etc. etc. etc. We all know them, we all know their play and we can summarize someone in that category within ten hands.

None of those types would coldcall two minbets, then four bet when it came back to them with just any two. Lots of people will put in a third raise with 95o with 2 bets to them; nobody will do this particular play without a monster. Granted, very rarely, that monster is misplayed aces or something equally ridiculous, but the one thing this is almost certainly not is a weird 2 pair or overpair under AA.

Therefore, there is very little difference in this spot between having 77 and 75o. Once you figure that out, you can see how strong your hand really is.

Bottom line: I think this is a calldown no matter what with 99, you can make up your mind on the turn/river with 77, and it may be an unimproved fold on the turn with 55 (though then you have the 97 possibility so it's trickier).

Anyway, the important thing is to make a real raise on the flop and then play it from there.

GtrHtr
05-31-2005, 08:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
With 97, *as the BB*, I am probably not getting off it without a lot more evidence than a bunch of minbetting donkeys. The 3 bet is easy and I call a push or a 4 bet depending. But we know he probably doesn't have 97.

Next: The low limits have plenty of idiots. These idiots, though, are calling stations, LAG's who love to bluff at a scary board, people who randomly raise 62o, etc. etc. etc. We all know them, we all know their play and we can summarize someone in that category within ten hands.

None of those types would coldcall two minbets, then four bet when it came back to them with just any two. Lots of people will put in a third raise with 95o with 2 bets to them; nobody will do this particular play without a monster. Granted, very rarely, that monster is misplayed aces or something equally ridiculous, but the one thing this is almost certainly not is a weird 2 pair or overpair under AA.

Therefore, there is very little difference in this spot between having 77 and 75o. Once you figure that out, you can see how strong your hand really is.

Bottom line: I think this is a calldown no matter what with 99, you can make up your mind on the turn/river with 77, and it may be an unimproved fold on the turn with 55 (though then you have the 97 possibility so it's trickier).

Anyway, the important thing is to make a real raise on the flop and then play it from there.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks very much. Both of your posts and Scuba's posts have taught me a great deal. I freely admit my flop call was horrible, but the betting threw me off and I failed to correctly think through a number of things throughout the betting on the flop.

Very good insight.