AA from the CO (100 NL 6max) [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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jhall23

05-31-2005, 11:25 AM

What do you think? MP was pretty bad. Loose passive who call's lots of PF raises but then shuts down. Button in this hand was a LAG. Pretty agressive pre and post flop but more aggressive pre-flop. I have been raising a wide range of hands and typically following up on the flop. Villian has previously check-raised one of my continuation bets when I raised from button and he was in the SB. Otherwise he has typically folded to my follow up on the flop if he called the pf raise.

After no raise on the turn or river I am not quite sure where I was at but thought being a lag he might bet a wider range of hands on the river then he would call. I hadn't seen him slowplay anything in the previous hands.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($49.07)
Hero ($120.15)
Button ($122)
SB ($60.85)
BB ($118.2)
UTG ($237.39)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, MP calls $1, Hero raises to $5, Button calls $5, 2 folds, MP calls $4.

Flop: ($16.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $10, Button calls $10, MP folds.

Turn: ($36.50) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $20, Button calls $20.

River: ($76.50) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $43, Hero calls $43.

Final Pot: $162.50

unlucky513

05-31-2005, 11:32 AM

i think you have to fold this river. there are too many hands that LAG would call your preflop raise w/ that would give him a hand that can beat yours. AJ, KT, KQ, etc...

his bet on the river looks kind of suspicious.. interested to see what button had.

subzero

05-31-2005, 11:59 AM

I know you can't play in fear of a set, but I think he has it here. I think he would've reraised preflop with KK or QQ. It's a little expensive to call with a small pair like 44. I'm guessing he has TT, but I don't think I could've gotten away from this hand.

jhall23

05-31-2005, 12:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think you have to fold this river. there are too many hands that LAG would call your preflop raise w/ that would give him a hand that can beat yours. AJ, KT, KQ, etc...

his bet on the river looks kind of suspicious.. interested to see what button had.

[/ QUOTE ]

So would your line be check/fold on the river or would you throw out a blocking bet?

unlucky513

05-31-2005, 12:24 PM

i honestly don't know what i'd do in this position. check/folding seems week, check/calling could cost you, so i guess a blocking bet would be the best line, fold to any raise.

tough hand.. what happened?

jhall23

05-31-2005, 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i honestly don't know what i'd do in this position. check/folding seems week, check/calling could cost you, so i guess a blocking bet would be the best line, fold to any raise.

tough hand.. what happened?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check folding was not something I was considering. I was either betting about 30-35 or check calling a reasonable bet.

I'll post results later, but I would like to see if I can get some more feedback first. Don't want to taint the results.

unlucky513

05-31-2005, 12:41 PM

ha, you said taint.

Mercman572

05-31-2005, 12:54 PM

river bet looks like a value bet to me... i'd fold this one for the same reason as unlucky stated when he bets. my line would have been a blocking bet on the river followed by a fold to the raise. AJ and KQ seem very likely here

jacknine

05-31-2005, 01:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know you can't play in fear of a set, but I think he has it here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I´d sooner think 2 pair - KQ or even KT. If the guy is a lag as Hero said he is, he´d probably have reraised if he hit his set. I also think he would´ve been more agressive with AK on a flop like this.
I would have made a bigger bet on the flop. Probably round $25. If you get called - you know your aces probably aren´t any good. Most of you might say this would definetly commit you to a showdown - yet I think it´s a less expensive way to find out then having to call that massive river bet.
I think the check on the river was wrong - this is just an invitation for him to try and steal and you know his bet is gonna be big. But now you´re more inclined to call cuz you think it´s a steal. If you´d just have bet $20 again, I think this guy would´ve just called you.
Curious bout the results!

jhall23

05-31-2005, 01:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know you can't play in fear of a set, but I think he has it here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I´d sooner think 2 pair - KQ or even KT. If the guy is a lag as Hero said he is, he´d probably have reraised if he hit his set. I also think he would´ve been more agressive with AK on a flop like this.
I would have made a bigger bet on the flop. Probably round $25. If you get called - you know your aces probably aren´t any good. Most of you might say this would definetly commit you to a showdown - yet I think it´s a less expensive way to find out then having to call that massive river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that two-pair is much more likely than a set here. I would have expected to hear from a set either on the flop or turn. But you never know.

In regards to the flop bet I might have made it a little more, but I wouldn't overbet the pot as this is something I never do with any type of hand on this board. Great way to find out if I'm ahead, but I kinda want to make some money off of hands that I am beating. Since I'm raising a lot PF 10-12 is around my standard follow up on a flop with only 1 straight draw.

[ QUOTE ]

I think the check on the river was wrong - this is just an invitation for him to try and steal and you know his bet is gonna be big. But now you´re more inclined to call cuz you think it´s a steal. If you´d just have bet $20 again, I think this guy would´ve just called you.
Curious bout the results!

[/ QUOTE ]

Just want to be clear that when I decided to check on the river, it was with the intention of calling a river bet. The whole point was to get him to bet the hands he might have here that I am beating. I wouldn't really mind a check behind either however.

jacknine

05-31-2005, 01:42 PM

I don´t understand the point of checking with the intention to call - I think it complicates things.
If you´d have raised, say another $20, he´d call so you get a relatively cheap showdown - or he´d have raised, in which case I think you should just give him credit for beating your aces. Still cheaper than having to call his big river bet.
The size of his bet in this situation makes it harder to see if he really has a hand that beats you, or if he is just stealing. Your choice becomes a lot more tricky & expensive, I think.

DoubleDown

05-31-2005, 01:59 PM

i think a blocker/value bet on the river here might be good. that is a pretty nasty board and had i led the river (thus showing strength on 3 consecutive streets) and still gotten raised I would fold knowing that there are not many hands that I beat that will raise me on the river after I showed aggression thruout the hand.

if you check to villain on the river you also run the risk of him bluffing big - i.e. full pot or perhaps all-in - which i am sure you would probably hate to call on this board with only a pair. another reason why a river blocking bet should have been used.

barongreenback

05-31-2005, 02:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
thought being a lag he might bet a wider range of hands on the river then he would call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about this. All draws on the flop have hit something so its unlikely he's pure bluffing. I find most people (even LAGs) more likely to call with a pair than they are to bet. Do you think he's betting QJ or JT here hoping that you'll fold a K? Maybe.

Also important is the amount he bets or calls. Usually with a check call you'll pay more when beat than you get out of him when winning. This suggests you may get information when checking.

As for whether to call, KJ vs AJ,KQ,KT,QT,44 makes it close. Some useful questions are:
would he raise flop with KJ,KQ
would he bet this amount on the river with KJ
would he raise AK preflop
would he raise 2pair or a set on the turn.
would he call preflop with Kx less than KT.

The hands that best fit this sequence are AJ and KJ (J9s?) but loads more are possible and I'm always ready to be surprised .

James

jhall23

05-31-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think a blocker/value bet on the river here might be good. that is a pretty nasty board and had i led the river (thus showing strength on 3 consecutive streets) and still gotten raised I would fold knowing that there are not many hands that I beat that will raise me on the river after I showed aggression thruout the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definetly agree that If I made a blocker bet it would be hard for someone to come over the top on this board with anything I beat. That is one of the good things about the blocker bet.

[ QUOTE ]
if you check to villain on the river you also run the risk of him bluffing big - i.e. full pot or perhaps all-in - which i am sure you would probably hate to call on this board with only a pair. another reason why a river blocking bet should have been used.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definetly wouldn't have felt good about full pot or more. But for the same reason that someone wouldn't raise me on this scarry board I am wondering how likely someone at this level would be to make an all in bluff the way this hand played out.

FWIW, if I was to bet it would have been 30 at least. I think 20 looks too weak and might make the lag come over the top if he recognizes it for what it is. Maybe that is giving too much credit to a 100NL player though.

unlucky513

05-31-2005, 03:52 PM

results?

elus2

05-31-2005, 03:57 PM

betting 20 dollars into a 75 dollar pot is a good way to get bluff-raised on the river.

jhall23

05-31-2005, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
thought being a lag he might bet a wider range of hands on the river then he would call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about this. All draws on the flop have hit something so its unlikely he's pure bluffing. I find most people (even LAGs) more likely to call with a pair than they are to bet. Do you think he's betting QJ or JT here hoping that you'll fold a K? Maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you may be right. I could have been going too much based on the fact that he is a lag to get him to bet. He may have easily called with a pair (say QJ, KJ).

[ QUOTE ]

Also important is the amount he bets or calls. Usually with a check call you'll pay more when beat than you get out of him when winning. This suggests you may get information when checking.

As for whether to call, KJ vs AJ,KQ,KT,QT,44 makes it close. Some useful questions are:
would he raise flop with KJ,KQ
would he bet this amount on the river with KJ
would he raise AK preflop
would he raise 2pair or a set on the turn.
would he call preflop with Kx less than KT.

The hands that best fit this sequence are AJ and KJ (J9s?) but loads more are possible and I'm always ready to be surprised .

James

[/ QUOTE ]

As for the ?'s. I think he could both raise and call on the flop with KQ,KJ. He could also be calling on the flop with just about anything trying to see what I will do on the turn.

I think he would bet this amount on the river with a good amount of hands including KJ.

AK pre-flop might re-raise but I hadn't seen much re-raising going on so I would lean more to just calling.

I think a set would definetly raise the turn, not sure about 2 pair.

He would call PF with Kxs with position probably, among others.

But anyway after I made the decision to check I was willing to call up to 50 bucks so I had to stick to my guns and do it.

jhall23

05-31-2005, 04:30 PM

Alright before I leave work for the day here are the reults.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($49.07)
Hero ($120.15)
Button ($122)
SB ($60.85)
BB ($118.2)
UTG ($237.39)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, MP calls $1, Hero raises to $5, Button calls $5, 2 folds, MP calls $4.

Flop: ($16.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $10, Button calls $10, MP folds.

Turn: ($36.50) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $20, Button calls $20.

River: ($76.50) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $43, Hero calls $43.

Final Pot: $162.50

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ah As (one pair, aces).
Button has Ac Qd (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $162.50.