AQo - Button, Why raise?

[iNsChris]

What is the reason i'm raising, I never understand this hand.

Say im on the button, 5limpers and i raise? They all call..

WHy do i raise, I must read SSH again(preflop section) but whats the point in raising?

Should i limp against lots of callers?

Thanks.

[robracing]

You are raising because a hand like AQo plays better against fewer opponents. You are hoping to drive at least a couple of the limpers out.

By the way, on The Poker Channel in the UK last night, I saw Chris "Jesus" Ferguson say that AQ is the hand that he believes costs the average poker player more money than any other, so go carefully!

[iNsChris]

It seems it costs me loads, Hence i dont understand raising. Certainly not in micros late position where everyone calls a raise for one bet anyhow.

Then a K drops /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Twitch1977]

The raise is not so much designed to drive out opponents, but rather to push your preflop equity edge.

Lets say 5 people limp, you're on the button with AQo, if you raise and say the big blind and all the limpers call that's 7 people in the pot.

So everyone at this point has contributed roughly 14% of the money in the pot. (Rounding numbers for easier reading.)

Now with a hand like AQo you've probably got a stronger hand then at least half the people, there's a good chance you have the best hand out of all of them. So even though you've only contributed 14% of the money in the pot your hand is probably going to win more then that, say maybe it'll win 20% of the time (Just a rough estimate culled from Pokerstove vs random hands.)

This creates an equity imbalance in your favor, you're contributing 14% of the money but you expect to win more then 14% of the time which would be your fair share. To exploit this imbalance even further you put in the raise since that will double the amount this imbalance will win you.

I believe SSHE has a section on this but I don't have the book in front of me. But in short you're raising because your hand figures to be better more then your 'fair share' of the time (preflop equity advantage).

I hope I explained this somewhat coherently /images/graemlins/smile.gif

T

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the reason i'm raising, I never understand this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's all about equity in low limits. Twitch explains that very well. Remember that post flop you're probably going to be behind and will have to let the hand go. You might see the turn, but if you don't have something by then, you don't want to pay big bets against many opponents. Read SSHE for more on playing overcards.

AQo plays best against few opponents, preferably headsup, in my opinion.

In the end, if you fold AQo on the button preflop with many limpers in a low limit game, you won't be making a large mistake.

[manpower]

[ QUOTE ]
In the end, if you fold AQo on the button preflop with many limpers in a low limit game, you won't be making a large mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ebidy ebidy ebdiy wha?!?!?!

You will in fact be making a large mistake if you fold AQo pf on the button after many limpers. You will also be making a large mistake if you fail to raise. This is straight out of SSHE, remember the ATs in a multiway pot example?

[beekeeper]

Unless you're the one opening the pot with AQ, perhaps raise only if you have a read on the table and know your raise would push out most of the field.

There are a lot of flops that can hurt you.

[Demos]

You raise with AQo on the button because most/all of the hands that have limped in are worse.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
You raise with AQo on the button because most/all of the hands that have limped in are worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Winner. It's a value raise.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
You are raising because a hand like AQo plays better against fewer opponents. You are hoping to drive at least a couple of the limpers out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're on the button. The only people you're likely to drive out are the blinds. Anyone that's already voluntarily put in a bet is going to call one more.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you're the one opening the pot with AQ, perhaps raise only if you have a read on the table and know your raise would push out most of the field.

There are a lot of flops that can hurt you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is weak-tight thinking, not a winning strategy.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
The raise is not so much designed to drive out opponents, but rather to push your preflop equity edge.

[...]

I hope I explained this somewhat coherently /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
Ebidy ebidy ebdiy wha?!?!?!

You will in fact be making a large mistake if you fold AQo pf on the button after many limpers. You will also be making a large mistake if you fail to raise. This is straight out of SSHE, remember the ATs in a multiway pot example?

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew I'd raise a little stink. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Glad someone was paying attention.

First, you have to ask, how many times do I get AQo on the button. Rarely. Overall, you won't be in this position very often so if you are unsure about what to do with it, there's no problem folding in the long run.

Once you're comfortable with what to do with this hand in this position, you won't be folding and you'll be pressing that edge with confidence.

As for ATs, that is much clearer in a multiway pot, in my opinion.

Regards,

T

[cocked&locked]

[ QUOTE ]
First, you have to ask, how many times do I get AQo on the button. Rarely. Overall, you won't be in this position very often so if you are unsure about what to do with it, there's no problem folding in the long run.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is terrible advice. The game in general is about learning to push edges, not avoiding them. While I agree that some marginal hands / situations are better avoided when learning, clearly raising AQo in position in a low limit game where you likely have a big equity edge is not one of them.

[Twitch1977]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ebidy ebidy ebdiy wha?!?!?!

You will in fact be making a large mistake if you fold AQo pf on the button after many limpers. You will also be making a large mistake if you fail to raise. This is straight out of SSHE, remember the ATs in a multiway pot example?

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew I'd raise a little stink. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Glad someone was paying attention.

First, you have to ask, how many times do I get AQo on the button. Rarely. Overall, you won't be in this position very often so if you are unsure about what to do with it, there's no problem folding in the long run.

Once you're comfortable with what to do with this hand in this position, you won't be folding and you'll be pressing that edge with confidence.

As for ATs, that is much clearer in a multiway pot, in my opinion.

Regards,

T

[/ QUOTE ]

AQo on the button in the grand scheme of things is a rare and fairly insignificant occurence, but if you treat all your little mistakes like this, 'well I don't know what to do, I guess I'll just fold,' all those 'small mistakes' are going to start adding up and costing you a lot of money.

AQo, as you said, plays better in a shorthanded pot, but I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be, you're really only in trouble preflop to AA, AK, KK, QQ. Just take your time evaluating the flop and how your AQo fits into it and you'll be fine.

Folding AQo on the button with several limpers is a clear mistake imo. AQo might not be the best multiway hand in the world but it can sure beat a lot of the junk other people will play. I see no reason to even think about folding this. I would certainly take AQo over hands like 98s, in fact if I could get dealt AQo every time I was on the button, I'd be a very happy camper /images/graemlins/smile.gif

T

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Say im on the button, 5limpers and i raise? They all call..

because if the blinds both call you're against 7 opponents with a hand that wins a good deal more than 1/8 of the time.

[cocked&locked]

[ QUOTE ]
AQo, as you said, plays better in a shorthanded pot

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is true. As I've learned it, these bigger hands (such as AQo) generally have an equity advantage that exceeds the detriment that comes from having several random hands (such as seen in low limit) drawing against it (not all off suit brodways, just the bigger ones). While I haven't done the sims myself to collaborate this, some authors that I respect have asserted this.

If I've misread, I'd like to be corrected. If I've been misinformed, I'd certainly like to see some conflicting data.

I do agree that you will win more pots when it is shorthanded, but we want the money, not the pots.

Edited to say that I'm not directing this comment directly at you Twitch, but the others in the thread that have stated this as well. I pretty much agree with the other things you've said, and might have taken this comment a bit out of context in your post, however, the sentiment was passed around enough in the thread that I figured I would reply here.

[iNsChris]

(replyed to my post as its to no one specific).

Ok, Well i'll keep raising preflop but it just seems when i do raise... Flops Rag Rag K and i have 3outs to TopPair.

Guess pokertracker will tell me how good it is when i eventually purchase this software/Can use it on my site.

Continue discussion, I'm learning.

I thought equality/Edge would come into it, It just feels like such a weak hand.

Thanks.

[Twitch1977]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AQo, as you said, plays better in a shorthanded pot

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is true. As I've learned it, these bigger hands (such as AQo) generally have an equity advantage that exceeds the detriment that comes from having several random hands (such as seen in low limit) drawing against it (not all off suit brodways, just the bigger ones). While I haven't done the sims myself to collaborate this, some authors that I respect have asserted this.

If I've misread, or been misinformed, I'd certainly like to see some conflicting data.

I do agree that you will win more pots when it is shorthanded, but we want the money, not the pots.

Edited to say that I'm not directing this comment directly at you Twitch, but the others in the thread that have stated this as well. I pretty much agree with the other things you've said, and might have taken this comment a bit out of context in your post, however, the sentiment was passed around enough in the thread that I figured I would reply here.

[/ QUOTE ]



I have re-wrote this reply about 7 times trying to properly express what I was intending and I can't seem to do it without sounding like I'm contradicting myself. In retrospect if I were to do it again I would leave the 'plays better in a shorthanded pot' comment out simply because it seems to add contradiction.

I only meant to indicate that a hand with a lot of 'Top Pair - Good Kicker' strength such as AQo plays very well shorthanded and will win a lot of pots based on flopping top pair and having it hold up at the showdown. But this in no way means that it does not play very well multi-way because it does maintain a healthy equity advantage.

Appologies.

T

[Twitch1977]

I would recommend going to http://www.pokerstove.com/ and downloading the poker stove app and play around and see just how well AQo plays against varying numbers of opponents.

This is an excellent app. I use all the time for playing around to evaluate the strength of varying hands vs different numbers of opponents.

T

[iNsChris]

yeh i have this, Giving some suprising results. Good program, my 1.8ghz suffers with 3+players lol.

Cheers.

[Twitch1977]

For anything more then 2 players I usually set it to 'Monte Carlo' rather then Enumerate.

Monte Carlo mode deals out random hands where Enumerate deals specific hands until it's gone through all the combinations. Unless you need a specific and technically accurate % Monte Carlo can usually get you 'close enough' if you let it deal a good minute's worth of hands.

Figured I'd mention it in case you haven't tried Monte Carlo.

T

[playersare]

on the button you still want to drive out the blinds with your raise at the very least. all the limpers are presumably weaker than you and there's an additional 0.75BB of dead money in the pot to pad your wins, plus a high percentage of extra money from the limpers who are already committed to the pot with garbage hands.

any hands which are above AQo would have presumably raised ahead of you, so you are not worried about domination with top pair. if someone hits a second pair with their rag kicker, it's because they managed to hit a 3-outer, and then you still have a 3-outer to come over the top. but most of the time, neither of you will hit your kicker, and you will drag the pot. AQo also has additional possibility of hitting a nut straight or even draw to a nut flush when 2-3 suited fall on the flop. and if you don't hit anything on the flop at all, it's easy to get away from AQo so you don't cut into your net wins when you do catch TPTK or a strong draw.

out of my last 32,000 hands I have been dealt AQo on the button 43 times, and raised preflop 86% of the time. W$SD 60%, net 1.28BB/hand. you don't expect to win with it EVERY time, just MOST of the time. that's how you make money in this game.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
Just take your time evaluating the flop and how your AQo fits into it and you'll be fine.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is where the trouble is. Most people, starting out, are going to take AQo too far. Same with any overcard hand.

[ QUOTE ]

Folding AQo on the button with several limpers is a clear mistake imo. AQo might not be the best multiway hand in the world but it can sure beat a lot of the junk other people will play. I see no reason to even think about folding this. I would certainly take AQo over hands like 98s, in fact if I could get dealt AQo every time I was on the button, I'd be a very happy camper /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this sentiment, and it should be noted I'd never fold AQo on the button with any number of limpers to me, and i'd raise about 90% of the time. Furthermore I'd often three bet it if there was a raise and no cold-callers.

However, I still don't think it's a terrible mistake to fold it if you find yourself in positions where you are puzzled about how to play it. That doesn't mean you don't try to figure out how to play it, of course. Just don't think you have to play it just because it's a big ace.

Regards,

T

[iNsChris]

yeh i think i take Overcards to far, I also lose to Ragy 2pairs!

No on respects my raises as of lately, And missing flops is causing alot of problems at the moment.

I'll contine to preflop raise and fold if i miss unless the potodds/Odd to improve say otherwise.

Thanks.