How to compete with a maniac?

[stonekiller2]

Last week at Foxwoods, I was on a very good 1-5 table. There were four weak players who chased far too often. A Maniac sat down and began raising everything. At one point
he completed the 3rd street bet on 15 straight hands. There were two players between us, so often when I tried to force players out, we ended up with a huge 4 way pot with everyone going all the way to the river. The pots became so big that nearly everyone began chasing to the river.

My strategy was to continue to play tight and try to get heads-up against him whenever possible. My winnings on the table slowed soon after he arrived. Even knowing my starting cards were better, I was outdrawn often by someone in the pot. I increased my play of drawing hands, but didn't make many of my straights and flushes.

Any suggestions on playing this sort of opponnent?

[DoctorK]

It sounds like you're talking abot 2 separate things.

First, when I'm up against one player who raises at every opportunity, I've found that he usually will drive other players out, so when I have a hand, rather than trying to raise or re-raise, I'll just call along. By re-raising, I have found that a lot of other players will tag along on the large pot. Trying to get heads up with him is a good move, because you know that the hands you're playing are better than the ones he's playing.

Now, the second issue is what to do when the majority of the table is loose. I have a hard time with this situation, myself. In 1-5 stud with no ante, there's really no penalty to continuing to play good cards (there's no ante eating your stack). At Foxwoods, however, there's a $0.50 ante, which, compared with the $1 bring in, results in an over-ante situation, and the correct play IS to loosen up a bit. So, perhaps these other players are actually playing more correctly than you. You want to play more hands that will play well against multiple players -- flush and straight draws. Big pairs are still very good hands, but they lose some value vs. 4 or 5 callers who are working on draws. Consider treating 2 pair as a draw to a Full House.

Don't forget that table selection should be part of a winning player's arsenal. If you're feeling uncomfortable playing at a table with that kind of make up, request a table change. Don't get too caught up in the "I must learn how to conquer this type of game" mentality. The object is to make money, and if there's an easier table across the room, you'd be a fool not to move there.

Doc.

[stonekiller2]

DoctorK,

I think you are correct. I should be more willing to pick up and move. The loseness of the game has become an issue since the wild player joined the table. I have had success in loose games, but not when a wild player drives up the stakes and keeps even more players in.

My hope was to figure out how to 1.help the wild player lose his money faster and 2. profit from his loose and aggressive play.

I think my hessitation to go heads up often with this type of player is the swings that occur if they begin to hit their hands and they will hit some.

I was hoping folks may have a strategy they suggest other than playing good hands heads up and allowing them to build a pot for monster hands.

Stone.

[Lin Sherman]

Tightening up was right, playing more drawing hands was probably wrong. In spread limit, the bet size doesn't double on the late streets, so if a maniac is making you pay $6 on third to play a drawing hand, you're not getting the implied odds to make it profitable to call on third to see if you pick up the fourth card for your draw. You should probably stick to three flushes to a live ace or three suited cards within a straight span; almost any other drawing-type hand should go in the dustbin.

Don't feel you have to loosen up to pay for your antes. Sooner or later, in a game like this, you will win a huge pot that will more than make up for the antes. Remember that losing a .50 ante is a lot less expensive than losing $21 to chase with a drawing hand and bust out.

Lin

[CJC]

Lin,

I'm confused as to some of your advise to the poster!

Tightening up was right, playing more drawing hands was probably wrong

I do not like this statement. The poster implies that the games are large-mulitway pots, as is very typical of Foxwoods 1-5 games. ( trust me-I know and I Kill that game ) Large muliway pots are what you want for drawing hands! Even if you have to pay a full price on 3rd! Your implied odds are tremendous in these games, especially against a maniac. I'm certainly not saying play every drawing hand, but live 3 flushes( especially Big ones ) and big straight draws are certainly playable. Most are re-raisable against a maniac!! The KEY is to know 1) When to let go of your draw..even if you have improved 2)Knowing when your drawing hand is the BEST hand........Both of which I'll admit novice players seldom know. I guess what I'm trying to say is against a maniac I want to partake in as MANY PROFITABLE situations as I can againat him/her.


You should probably stick to three flushes to a live ace or three suited cards within a straight span; almost any other drawing-type hand should go in the dustbin.


Another statement I don't like. ALTHOUGH.. and this is important. if it wasn't a large multiway pot type situation, I would agree with this. Once again I will say, play as many hands as you can profitably against this type opponent(s)


Don't feel you have to loosen up to pay for your antes


This advice is assenine!! NO ONE should listen to this. Have you even ever played in this game?


Remember that losing a .50 ante is a lot less expensive than losing $21 to chase with a drawing hand and bust out.


Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and do battle! If you don't have any balls, go play 1-3!

CJ

[CJC]

Don't forget that table selection should be part of a winning player's arsenal. If you're feeling uncomfortable playing at a table with that kind of make up, request a table change. Don't get too caught up in the "I must learn how to conquer this type of game" mentality. The object is to make money, and if there's an easier table across the room, you'd be a fool not to move there.

This is some of the best advise I have seen here!!

CJ

[CJC]

I have reponded to some other posters in this thread.

I will ask/say one thing..

There were 4 opponents between you and your maniac opponent.

Did you utilize the check-raise enough?

Just something to ponder..
CJ

[patrick dicaprio]

i dont think this is good advice for these low limit games at foxwoods. i dont even follow the advice you haev given at 5-10.

i play virtually any drawing hand that has a chance in multiway pots, and will even limp in with low gut shots if it is only the bring in and it is loose passive.why would you tighten up in a game where even when the pot is raised you will get five callers, and where you (presumably) will be able to outplay your opponents. people play absolute garbage in these games even when it is raised and you will often see players call to the river with something like a pair of 8's. believe it or not this is true. i will usually play almost any decent hand in unraised pots.

you have to keep in mind that a maniac in this game is a great thing if you play reasonably well because you will still almost always play better hands than not only him but better than everyone else even when it is raised.granted that you have to play well on third street and must be good at evaluating the strength of your hand. but if you do then you will crush the game. warning: This advice does NOT apply always but just to the games at foxwoods, where it applies routinely and if you try it in a tight game or one where the raisers play reasonable cards you may be in for a long session.

i dont think you can beat these games if you restrict threeflushes to live aces or straighflushes. i will play every live threeflush even when raised in these games and will play most threestraights if live. with unraised pots i play even looser.

as fas as not loosening up in these games because of the antes, i think you have a valid point especially if you dont play well or are not that much better than your opponents. but if you play reasonably well you will leave a lot of money on the table if you dont loosen up.

Pat

[AlanBostick]

I've read through this thread, and while there are valuable suggestions scattered throughout, I think the responses are overlooking an important issue.

One of the chief features of seven-card stud, in my opinion, is the opportunity it presents for reading opponents' hands. The five betting rounds present a kind of narrative of the development of players' hands. Skilled players understand these narratives and use them to guide the play of their own hands.

Now here we have a table full of loose players and one loose cannon. The loose cannon is playing -- and raising on third street -- every hand, and if our hero reraises as an attempt to isolate, the other players stick around for the ride.

The problem here is that the loose cannon can be playing anything and that the loose chasers, too, can be playing almost anything. The opening of the narrative is no longer something like "In the beginning, there was a split pair of tens," but instead "Once upon a time, there was a guy who had two random hole cards with the ten of diamonds up."

It's a lot harder to read, and to play against, a hand based on random starters than it is against a player whose play makes sense. And competent stud players' play has a solid basis on making those reads.

In a game like the one stonekiller2 describes, an important part of your usual edge has gone away.

This can be an argument for game selection: stick to games where your edge is best. But you can also have a significant edge over the other players in this game by means of other basic stud skills: starting-hand selection; awareness of the liveness of the cards one needs, and so on. Often it's going to come down to playing your own hand and regarding the other hands strictly as information about dead cards and betting order.

Another thing to remember is that when most pots are multiway, every hand is a drawing hand. That pair of aces with a suited king kicker may well be the very best hand on third street, but unless it catches a second pair or improves in some other way, the guy in seat two wearing the green fright wig, white greasepaint and bulbous red rubber nose is going to beat you with his fives and threes.

The point here is that you need to play better, more live draws than your opponents. And remember that, in a 1-5 game with no double bet on later streets, implied odds are cut, just as Lin Sherman points out, and your investment in the pot is front-loaded when the loose cannon raises and reraises. Your draw to aces up or trip aces with an (As Ah) Kh starter is a lot better than Clueless the Clown's (or even Patrick DiCaprio's) rainbow (4 5) 3

Games like this are extremely beatable, but they involve bigger swings than tighter or more passive games. You need to be prepared to take that heat, and you need to be prepared to trade off the fact that good starters will win far less often against the much larger pots you drag when they do win.

[stonekiller2]

CJ,

Thanks for the advice. It sounds like I am not too far off.

You are right about check raising, I need to do this more. The situation was not well suited for check raising because there were only 2 (not 4) players after me and before the maniac. One was tight and folded often anyway.

I guess the best thing to do is play solid hands including live draws and buckle up for the shootout.

Thanks for the advice.
I'll let you know how I do this weekend.

[Lin Sherman]

You folks are obviously more familiar with these Foxwood games than I am, so I can't argue with some of the points you made, especially about the general approach to playing those games. However, the advice I gave was intended to be specific to the question the OP asked, namely how to cope with a maniac in a 1-5 spread limit game. It wasn't meant to be a general treatise on how to beat every 1-5 Foxwoods game, and certainly not 5-10 or higher structured-limit games.

There are some specific points I'd like to address that one or both of you guys brought up.

(1) The idea that the ante justifies loosening up compared to a non-anted game is completely wrong when the game is already loose. In a loose game, even at 1-5, the extra $4 is a fly on an elephant's butt, especially as it all goes towards the rake anyway and shouldn't even be considered when figuring your pot odds. (I'm assuming these games are raked and not time-charged).

(2) As for raising with a drawing hand (CJC), this is almost always wrong unless either (a) you have a completely live ace, or (b) a raise will get you heads up against the idiot AND you have two overcards to the idiot's door card, or (c) a raise has a very good chance of buying a free card on fourth street. Otherwise raising on third with a drawing hand is usually a big -EV play. Raising on 4th, however, is often a different matter, because if you have made a four-flush and it's still live, you're almost always getting +EV to raise against any number of opponents, plus it may buy you a free card on fifth street.

(3) As for calling with weak drawing hands on third, this is often right, but not as often as most stud players think. These hands just don't get there that often, and when they do, they often don't hold up.

It's a peculiarity of stud-type games that as the number of players in the pot increases, your pot equity with most hands goes down even faster. That is, a hand that might have 25% pot equity in a 3-way pot might have only 10% equity in a 5-way pot. The problem tends to get worse on the later streets, especially for unimproved pairs AND, believe it or not, for baby straight and flush draws that haven't got there yet. The fact that a bunch of people are hanging around on the late streets when you have a little straight or flush draw usually means you are up against better draws, and in the long run, this means you're actually an overall dog.

(4) Playing with your balls [sic] is a good way to wind up in 1-3. It's okay to think at the table, really it is.

You guys may well be beating these games, but I'm pretty sure it's not because you're playing extra drawing hands in a RAISED pot (note emphasis). It's because you outread your opponents and therefore fold faster than your opponents when you're getting the worst of it.

Lin

[Andy B]

Maniac on a stud table. Yum. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif I don't particularly like playing hold'em with maniacs, but I do like playing stud with them.

If you have a reasonable hand and you can get it heads-up by re-raising him, do so. Be very careful though. If there are a couple of callers in between you already, you're liable to wind up with a big four-way pot with everyone staying in until the river. This probably isn't what you want if you have a pair of Jacks or something. In that case, just call and hope you hit something. Another thing that can happen is that people will tire of folding and will decide to play their pair of Sevens for $10 anyway. If there are enough folks doing this, you are again better off just calling and trying to make a hand or perhaps thinning the field out later.

I tend to side with Lin (who I happen to think has as much "balls" as any of you $5/10 weenies /forums/images/icons/smile.gif). I think that a lot of people on this forum over-emphasize the need to loosen up when the ante is high. If the game is loose, the plain and simple fact of the matter is that you are going to have to show down the best hand most of the time. If the other players aren't going to let you (or the maniac) run them over, you probably shouldn't loosen up all that much.

This is where Lin and I differ--I don't consider playing small but live three-flushes to be "loosening up." I have had a lot of success in loose low-limit stud games, and I believe that a significant portion of my profit comes from flush draws. Lin writes:

"The fact that a bunch of people are hanging around on the late streets when you have a little straight or flush draw usually means you are up against better draws, and in the long run, this means you're actually an overall dog."

I think that what you're saying is quite valid if you are in a multi-way pot against decent players. If you're in a game that usually has two- and three-way pots, and you suddenly have a six-way pot, your small flush draw probably doesn't have a whole lot of equity. Unfortunately, by the time you figure out that you're in trouble, the pot's probably too big to fold. I think, however, that stonekiller2 is talking about generally weak opponents, and I think that small flush draws are still profitable against these guys. It is true that the maniac's raising on third street combined with the fact that the limits don't double on later streets cut down on your implied odds, but I think that the multi-way nature of these pots should still make small flush draws profitable. Straight draws are another matter. I won't say that you should never play a straight draw. I will say that the vast majority of stud players would be better off if they never played for a straight.

I wouldn't classify anything Lin wrote as asinine, though.

I think that CJC asks a good question, but I rarely check-raise in low-limit stud games. It tends to antagonize people and get them out of the gambling mood. This can be a very bad thing, and the extra bet you may gain may not be worth the price. If you do something tricky like check-raising, it may encourage your opponents to try something tricky. If they have been barely paying attention up to this point, that isn't a good thing.

Good question, good thread. Thanks for bringing it up.

Cheers,

Andy B

Currently a $6/12 weenie /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

[CJC]

Hello Again Lin,

To reply to your replies /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

1) The idea that the ante justifies loosening up compared to a non-anted game is completely wrong when the game is already loose.

In a very loose game I DO AGREE with you on this one. Actually I have thought about your comments on this matter quite a deal in the last hour. ( I have nothing else to do here at work right now /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif ) I do think we might 'differ' on our definitions of loosening up.

I will just say, that ON AVERAGE.. if one plays a 1-5 game with the 50 cent ante the same way he/she plays the 1-5 with no ante, that person WILL NOT BE A WINNER. Or at the very least, will not be maximizing his/her profits.

2) As for raising with a drawing hand (CJC), this is almost always wrong unless

I don't rember posting above anything about raising with a drawing hand. I do remember discussing RE-RAISING. Though there are several times when both are correct. ( particularly re-raising ) For example. If you know a loose opponent will raise with something like 456 and you hold 10JQ, if a re-raise will get you heads-up. Wouldn't you want to be? I would! Now in a really-loose game where heads-up opportunities are almost impossible, then I agree re-rasing with a holding such as this is futile/stupid. Although the original post implies a loose game with 1 maniac, it didn't refer to a MULTI-MANIAC table. ( such as the one really loose one I described in my 10-20 post from the other day )

3) As for calling with weak drawing hands on third, this is often right, but not as often as most stud players think

I don't disagree with you here at all..


4) Playing with your balls [sic] is a good way to wind up in 1-3. It's okay to think at the table, really it is


/forums/images/icons/confused.gif


Sincerly,

CJ

[stonekiller2]

Thanks to all for the advice and Happy Holidays to you all.

Andy, I agree with much of what you said. Often in my 1-5 game, there will be 3-4 players on sixth street. Someone makes trip 3's or a gut shot straight and beats AAKK. With so many people in the hand the winners get bigger. Straights are very frequent.

It is impossible to raise out some of these players no matter how badly thier pair of 7's is beat.

I have begun to play MANY more hands for a limp and more one gap straights and flush draws. This works (passive game) because most of the players don't bet until they make a monster and will pay off when you hit your hand.

I agree that playing those small 3 flushes make perfect sense in this sort of game.

I like your point about the check-raise as well. I think if I softened my table image a bit, people may play a little friendlier (and longer) against me. I would (and have) check-raised my mother (an avid player). I agree, at the lower limits, some people are offended by this.

I wish you all rolled up K's for Christmas. A's would be pushing it.

[Brudder Andrusha]

I wish you all rolled up K's for Christmas. A's would be pushing it.

Funny you that you mention this...

I drove down to ACity on Xmas eve wanting to miss the Nor'easter that was coming on Xmas Day. So after all the goodies of Xmas Day morning, I weaselled my way down to Taj for what I expected to be a quiet session of $5/$10...

I was placed in seat #4 and soon after my neighbor in seat #5 go his rolled Ks
just like you said for Xmas... Unfortunately for him, he lost to a maniac made his gun shot draw on 7th street and beat him with a straight...

Not to worry. After about 1/2 an hour the elderly gent left with a stack and a Star of David! I guess the rolled up Ks work on Xmas if you're a believer! /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

LOL