how long till you became profitable? any tips?

[chipstacks]

How long after learning major concepts did it take and how much cash lost before you became a profitable player?

So I just recently began learning the crucial concepts to low-limit PL holdem. Playing position, top ten hands, player personalities, when multiway is good and when it's not, and pot odds. I know about slow playing and trying to narrow the field, however I'm still a little hazy on when to raise or just call. I'm reading Small Stakes Hold Em right now and just trying to soak everything in.

Anyway the first week I began learning these concepts things went very well, I instantly became profitable/break even. However the more I've been learning lately, the more I'm losing. I feel like im playing too cerebrally and cautious, I'm getting what seems like an unusual amount of bad beats, a bare minimum of playable hands and am generally fearful of jackals because I'm buying too much into the concept of 'a bet saved is a bet earned'.

My recent play are losses of about $100 for 2 weeks of semi-regular play, this leads me to believe its more than just my share of bad luck.

I'd really like to hear how all of you progressed once you started learning proper playing techniques, and what concepts you think I am still lacking. Any tips are appreciated. I'm playing .50/1 pl on party poker btw.

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]

How long after learning major concepts did it take and how much cash lost before you became a profitable player?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're ever discouraged about your progress, it may help to remember that it took Howard Lederer two years before he became profitable in his $1/$2 game.

[Webster]

It took 3 or 4 buy ins before I caught hold. Poker is REALLY streaky so when you lose look at your hand history to see if it was you or the cards. Losing does not mean you are playing bad cards. Winning does not mean you pare playing good cards.



Just play straight up ABC poker - nothing fancy.

BTW - you go though this everytime you move up to a new level.



Grinders Warehouse BLOG Edition (http://www.grinderswarehouse.com)

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
How long after learning major concepts did it take and how much cash lost before you became a profitable player?

[/ QUOTE ]
I started winning on Day 1, long before I learned many things I consider major concepts.

[ QUOTE ]

So I just recently began learning the crucial concepts to low-limit PL holdem. Playing position, top ten hands, player personalities, when multiway is good and when it's not, and pot odds.


[/ QUOTE ]
Many of those are not important in beating low stakes PL games.

Position is important, much more in NL/PL than limit. Know how you can use your position.

You should play tightly. Throw out the "top 10 hands." There are some contexts in which playing tightly means you should only play KK and AA. In others, you should be playing almost half of the hands.

Player personalities are not very important. They can help you on marginal decisions, but you should be able to win with no reads. It is a common misconception that you have to play the person, not the cards... and this misconception is something that leads fish to take weak cards to battle, and lose again and again. If you can't beat a low-stakes game with no reads, you don't know the basics.

Many winning players don't understand when it is ok to let a pot be multiway and when it is better to get it heads-up. This leads me to believe it is not a very important concept. It's particularly tricky that some hands are tough to play heads-up in limit, but are fine heads-up in NL/PL.

The concept of pot odds may be the most important one on your list. It affects almost everything.

[ QUOTE ]

I'd really like to hear how all of you progressed once you started learning proper playing techniques, and what concepts you think I am still lacking. Any tips are appreciated. I'm playing .50/1 pl on party poker btw.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you are a beginner and are playing the PL 100 tables with $0.50/$1 blinds, I suggest you move down to the PL $25 tables, though losing two buy-ins is not a big deal. However, I suspect you actually mean fixed limit, not pot limit. In that case losing 200 BB strongly indicates that you are playing poorly, as the $0.50-$1 tables are very soft.

I'm not convinced you have a solid understanding of the concepts you have mentioned, so I am hesitant to suggest another. However, I feel one of the most important concepts is to recognize how much strength other players have shown through their actions. Ask yourself how much strength you have shown, too. Use this to bet or raise for value, one of the most important habits in low stakes poker.

[afk]

I had done a bunch of reading and knew a fair amount (for a beginner) before I began playing. I won my first session and never looked back.

[robracing]

A couple of points.

1. I assume that you played the free money tables for a few weeks until you could beat these consistently, right? I know that people will say that this isn't a fair representation of how the real money tables play, but I honestly think that, at Party, the real money table are just as loose and wild at times. Playing for pretend money gives you a chance to get a good basic grasp of the fundamentals of the game, before risking your hard-earned cash.

2. Buy PokerTracker. Or better still, search for a site that gives it to you for free as a sign-up bonus. This will allow you to analyse your play to spot the major leaks, as well as giving you a great live read on the players that you are facing. Take a look at the tremendous PokerTracker guide on Bet-the-pot.com.

Make sure that you are moving from site to site, to take advantage of the fantastic sign-up and re-load bonuses that are available. You should at least find that the bonuses offset your losses, so you can break even whilst learning the game.

Good Luck!

[afk]

Good call, I forgot to mention that I played some play money tables. I didn't jump in right away because I didn't have money for a buy in, so I played a little bit on play money tables to start getting a handle on the game and odds and whatnot.

[SheridanCat]

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How long after learning major concepts did it take and how much cash lost before you became a profitable player?


[/ QUOTE ]

No one has pointed out that most poker players are not profitable in the long run. I know it sounds strange, but it's true.

Anyone who is reading, learning, talking, thinking and improving has a better chance than the great unwashed who generally show up at the poker room, but still there is no guarantee you will be profitable.

I know this seems like a downer, but I don't think it's helpful for people to think they're entitled to a profit.

That said, you won't know you're a winning player until you've played 10s of thousands of hands of poker and analyzed your results.

[chipstacks]

thanks everyone for the insight so far. im going to sign up for two more online poker rooms, im currently playing on party poker, which others would you guys recommend? should i look for something with micro-blinds or is its play atypical?

finally, how much of your winning capability is based on things you have learned and how much is inborn 'poker sense'? when you're making tough calls are you going strictly by the book or with your intuition?

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks everyone for the insight so far. im going to sign up for two more online poker rooms, im currently playing on party poker, which others would you guys recommend? should i look for something with micro-blinds or is its play atypical?


[/ QUOTE ]

I play at PartyPoker, Pokerstars, UltimateBet and Full Tilt. I can recommend any of those. I hate Royal Vegas, but they are giving out $10 for opening an account. There's nothing wrong with playing the micros.

[ QUOTE ]

finally, how much of your winning capability is based on things you have learned and how much is inborn 'poker sense'? when you're making tough calls are you going strictly by the book or with your intuition?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine is wholly book learned. I never played poker until the age of 35 and was generally pretty poor and disinterested in other card games. That doesn't mean I don't get reads on players and use those reads to make decisions. Any mathematical decision must take into account what you know of the tendencies of your opponents.

[iNsChris]

I always disagree with beginners (whom want to learn limit) playing .50/1 However i'm a NEWBIE STUDENT.

Meaning i'm new to poker, and i dont have an income so can't risk big money.

I started with a $20 Bankroll, I read Internet Texas Hold'em and got up to $40, I withdrew my original deposit and dropped to $4.

Varience for you...

SO i plugged away, I'm currently sitting on a BR of $100, I recently purchased SSH and will continue to play .05/.10 games untill $150 where i MIGHT try .25/.50 (Or may wait untill $170 so i have a "Cushion" for the first days/Hands i lose whilst getting comfortable at this limit.

Personally if your losing at.50/1 i recommend you plan nanos.

.05/.10 untill your comfortable with your game, But if $100 means little to you then maybe its ok to play .50/1

Just my 2cents

[dcssullivan]

My opinion may not be of much value, as I'm still a newbie myself.

I've just started in poker about a month ago. I signed up with instant bankroll so I wouldn't be putting my own cash out there and got myself started at Party, and although I ate up the bonuses, I still had $100.

But I was bleeding it away at the .50/1.00 tables just trying to make the right decisions.

So, I started playing the NL tables, and I immediately made it all back, QUICKLY. So, I say, mix it up between NL, PL, and limit.

I look at it this way. The $25 NL tables BBs are 1/2 the cost to post the blinds. So, you're losing less to the blinds. You also know that if you have a good hand, and understand how to bet for pot odds, you're going to make more. I have a much easier time at NL, just buying in for small stakes and doubling them up when I have a premium hand. I usually go to the $25 tables with $10, and it works out well.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks everyone for the insight so far. im going to sign up for two more online poker rooms, im currently playing on party poker, which others would you guys recommend? should i look for something with micro-blinds or is its play atypical?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the biggest jump is from play money to real money. Microlimit games are very fishy, but so are low limit games, just not quite as much.

PokerStars has microlimits, excellent software, and they are currently running a deposit bonus (until June 2nd). You won't clear the bonus rapidly before you hit $1-$2 or tournaments, but there is no expiration date.

Ultimate bet also has microlimits, excellent software, and a deposit bonus with no expiration date. You can clear their bonus at $0.25-$0.50.

Both of these sites have better than average players, which is actually good for you. You get cheap practice. Once you are beating the $0.25-$0.50 limit games on either site, you should be a clear winner at Party $0.50-$1.

[ QUOTE ]
finally, how much of your winning capability is based on things you have learned and how much is inborn 'poker sense'? when you're making tough calls are you going strictly by the book or with your intuition?

[/ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of skills that aren't in books, including the ability to learn from your mistakes, to learn from noisy feedback, etc. However, there is a lot of great information in books, particularly ones such as Ed Miller's recent books (Small Stakes Hold'em and Getting Started in Hold'em), as well as Winning Low Limit Hold'em and Internet Texas Hold'em. I don't think everyone can become a great poker player, but I think every thinking adult can learn to be a winning poker player.

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
SO i plugged away, I'm currently sitting on a BR of $100, I recently purchased SSH and will continue to play .05/.10 games untill $150 where i MIGHT try .25/.50 (Or may wait untill $170 so i have a "Cushion" for the first days/Hands i lose whilst getting comfortable at this limit.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man, I started off similar to you. $50 on PokerStars .05/.10. You're ok to take the shot at .25/.50 with $100 I did it and never looked back - and now I'm playing anywhere from 1/2 to 5/10. It's a large jump (which kinda sucks) but the games are really just as easy.

[iNsChris]

Yeh trouble is, I'll play scared so need to build the BR and confidance to move up.

even .10/.20 gets me sitting on the edge of my seat /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I'm comfortable at .05/.10 - Very comfortable.

[chipstacks]

do hand values change at microlimits?? id imagine hands like KT, K9 all the way down to J9 (wrt position of course) are all playable preflop. J9 is maybe pushing it, but it can still make 3 different straights.

[suprblah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
finally, how much of your winning capability is based on things you have learned and how much is inborn 'poker sense'? when you're making tough calls are you going strictly by the book or with your intuition?

[/ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of skills that aren't in books, including the ability to learn from your mistakes, to learn from noisy feedback, etc. However, there is a lot of great information in books, particularly ones such as Ed Miller's recent books (Small Stakes Hold'em and Getting Started in Hold'em), as well as Winning Low Limit Hold'em and Internet Texas Hold'em. I don't think everyone can become a great poker player, but I think every thinking adult can learn to be a winning poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the thing. Can a person become break-even to slightly-profitable through just careful study and practice? I mean, I'm a pretty intelligent and educated guy, but I'm not a 13 yr old prodigy, I don't have photographic memory and I don't have unnatural Spidey Senses.

Since I was a poor university student I could never afford to gamble. But now that I've graduated my buddy got me into poker and I'm being my usual cautious self by studying as much as possible before even risking a single cent online.

Basically, will I be profitable in small stakes just by being more dedicated than 80% of the fish out there? My plan is to read TOP > SSH > WLLH > HPFAP. I'd be happy just winning $50/month at $0.5/1 limit while learning. At a conservative 1.0 BB/100, that's 5000 hands per month.

Is this achievable?

[celiboy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
finally, how much of your winning capability is based on things you have learned and how much is inborn 'poker sense'? when you're making tough calls are you going strictly by the book or with your intuition?

[/ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of skills that aren't in books, including the ability to learn from your mistakes, to learn from noisy feedback, etc. However, there is a lot of great information in books, particularly ones such as Ed Miller's recent books (Small Stakes Hold'em and Getting Started in Hold'em), as well as Winning Low Limit Hold'em and Internet Texas Hold'em. I don't think everyone can become a great poker player, but I think every thinking adult can learn to be a winning poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the thing. Can a person become break-even to slightly-profitable through just careful study and practice? I mean, I'm a pretty intelligent and educated guy, but I'm not a 13 yr old prodigy, I don't have photographic memory and I don't have unnatural Spidey Senses.

Since I was a poor university student I could never afford to gamble. But now that I've graduated my buddy got me into poker and I'm being my usual cautious self by studying as much as possible before even risking a single cent online.

Basically, will I be profitable in small stakes just by being more dedicated than 80% of the fish out there? My plan is to read TOP > SSH > WLLH > HPFAP. I'd be happy just winning $50/month at $0.5/1 limit while learning. At a conservative 1.0 BB/100, that's 5000 hands per month.

Is this achievable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I think you could be. Also keep in mind that at this limit bonuses play a key role. Generally most sites offer deposit or reload bonuses based on hands that achieve a rake of over 25 cents. At .5/1 one in every three hands achieve this level....at 100 hands you get $10 (this is how Absolute works). Therefore even if you are playing -3bb/100 poker you will still be breaking even. I have never read a single poker book, all my study has been from 2+2 and I jumped from 5/10 cent to 0.50/1.00.

[webgator]

Hand values remain the same at all levels. The only problem I ever found at the micros were all the beginners playing any 2 cards, especially anything attached to a face card (whether suited or not) and sucking out to win the pot.

Even when raised preflop with AA or KK there would be people calling with hands like 83os. Some say this is good and they are the type you want to play against but it does get frustrating.

I started out at Party then dropped to the micros at Stars and Pacific till I got a hang of the game. I'm back on Party and playing break even right now, not including the bonus money.

[jjacky]

i learned the game in vegas last september. played the lowest limits available 2/4 and 3/6 and lost surprisingly less (about 100$). after that i read a book and started playing 0.05/0.1 cash games at pacific poker with a bankroll of 10$. since the first day online i am a winning player (or very lucky /images/graemlins/smirk.gif ). my bankroll is up to more than 2k now.

here my tips (for limit game only) :
play a VERY simple and straigtforward game before you become pretty good. play very tight preflop. don't bluff and don't slowplay! never! continue on the flop only if you have top pair or better or an inside straight draw or flush draw.
playing like this is not optimal of course, but you should be able to grind out a little money on the lowest limits (i played exactly that way the first days in the internet).

if you are really playing pot limit you should switch to limit and it would help to play even lower than you do now (unless you get bored too much if you play lower).

[chipstacks]

Good to see this thread is still going strong with all your own stories.

Anyways since I've posted this earlier in the week, I've started playing .05/.10 micro blinds on PokerStars. I've been winning an average of about 50BB a day and had a hefty +120BB day yesterday. Today was my first losing day in this period, down 50BB, I'm gonna suck it up and not get off my game trying to win it back though.

I think most of my progress has come from finally truly absorbing the implications of playing +EV hands. Calculating pot odds has helped me sooo much, made decisions much easier and is a really good guide for someone who was kind of poking around in the dark before.

Before, I would say to myself, whats the big deal to throw in 1 dollar, look what you might win, this is gambling!!! Playing for long term profit is so much more satisfying.

Thanks again for all the info.