Animal Based Diet - Very Unhealthy

[theBruiser500]

So I've had a few threads already about being vegeterian and different aspects, now here is one on the health aspects of it specifically. If you are interested in this subject at all you need to read this book:

The China Project (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1932100385/qid=1117510963/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-7450786-8152803?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

Note btw that at 24 reviews it has 5 stars, and if you use amazon frequently and use the reviews you will know this is not meaningless. This well written book cites study after study and shows how the Western, animal based diet is responsible for our heart problems, cancer, diabetes, and a lot more.

Here is an interesting statistic which I had to read a few times because it is so amazing. In a couple provinces in China, Sichuan and some other place like Guinshzio, with a populaiton of 220,000+, in a period of 3 years in the 70's there was not single case of coronary heart disease. Or this one, a famous doctor put 23 people on a whole foods, plant based diet after they had 49 operations because of heart based problems, and in the following 11 years, 18 of them didn't need another operation. The other 5 dropped out of the program and I don't remember exactly what happened, but I think they had health problems.

One more interesting thing. Rats are put on a diet of 5% calories coming from animal protein, and 20% calories coming from animal protein. The rats with 5% animal proten exercised on a treadmill in the cage TWO times as much as the 20% protein rats (vegeterians have more energy). Okay and one more thing for people that think animal protein is so important that vegeterians have problems getting it. Americans have 15-16% of their diet on average come from protein, Chinese have about 6% of their diet come from protein. Of that 15% about 80% of that is from animal protein. Of the Chinese 6%, only 10% comes from animal proten, the other 90% (!!) comes from vegetables or whatever else.

Read this book.

[miajag81]

What this excerpt fails to point out is that animals are delicious.

[slickpoppa]

Too bad Chinese people smoke like chimneys: link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1493887.stm)

[Jakesta]

[ QUOTE ]
What this excerpt fails to point out is that animals are delicious.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are awesome.

[BusterStacks]

listening to socially inept hippies - very irritating

[Jakesta]

[ QUOTE ]
listening to socially inept hippies - very irritating

[/ QUOTE ]

owned.

[nolanfan34]

That's too much to read, the ribeye steak I grilled tonight is OK to eat, right? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
That's too much to read, the ribeye steak I grilled tonight is OK to eat, right? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah this makes me think of the 25 different meat based dishes I ordered at the Tapas resturant tonight.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
listening to socially inept hippies - very irritating

[/ QUOTE ]

owned.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all jakester, his joke was not funny so I was not "owned." Second of all what does this have to do with being a hippie? This isn't about animal cruelty, this is about health, is it being a hippie to care about my own well being? Okay if that is the case I guess I am not a macho American like you.

If you don't want to read it okay. If you don't want to be a vegeterian that is okay too. What astounds me though is how poorly informed people are on this subject, not just because of apathy but because of misinformation. This is my small contributition, spreading awareness of the knowledge that is available. I want my friends to be healthy and live to be old with me.

[Jakesta]

You can't prove that a vegetarian diet is healthier than a non-vegetarian diet.

And I've never claimed to be a macho American.

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't prove that a vegetarian diet is healthier than a non-vegetarian diet.


[/ QUOTE ]

isn't that what the book does?

[balkii]

eating meat is not causing americas health problems.

the health problems are caused by (in no particular order and im probably gonna leave out a ton)

-the stuff they put in the meat (antibiotics, hormones, etc)
-pesticides and herbicides on all our vegetables, and on all the vegetables that we feed the animals that we later eat
-lack of fresh, local, organic produce in most peoples diets
-general dietary imbalances
-fast food
-too many refined carbohydrates
-total lack of excercise
-overconsumption of alcohol
-smoking
-too many prescription drugs

and many many others. also meat tastes delicious.

[Jakesta]

No.

I've read that Diet for a New America or whatever book, and it's basically a bunch of propaganda.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
No.

I've read that Diet for a New America or whatever book, and it's basically a bunch of propaganda.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you followed that link I put up and read the 2nd review on amazon you would see that the author and many highly credible scientists support the ideas in the book.

[RunDownHouse]

Jesus. Not only are you completely socially inept, you seem to swallow every "new," "great" idea you "discover."

Seriously, bruiser, just because you are now in college doesn't mean you automatically have to throw out your shoes and reek of patchouli.

[Jakesta]

I think you are exactly right.

Bruiser needs a girl. Then maybe he will stop making posts like this.

[miajag81]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are exactly right.

Bruiser needs a steak. Then maybe he will stop making posts like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[Jakesta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you are exactly right.

Bruiser needs a steak. Then maybe he will stop making posts like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you aren't aware that Bruiser still eats meat. He has said that he eats chicken. So I don't know what the hell he is doing.

[slickpoppa]

Bruiser needs a hot beef injection in more ways than one.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
What this excerpt fails to point out is that animals are delicious.

[/ QUOTE ]

POTD

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
owned.


[/ QUOTE ]

446 posts in 4 days. YOU SOOOOO ROCK!

Lawrence

[fimbulwinter]

i think you'd be a much better person if you'd have gotten your ass kicked a little more growing up.

hey, i respect your game, but your posts outside the scope of holdem are pretty damn douchey.

fim

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What this excerpt fails to point out is that animals are delicious.

[/ QUOTE ]

POTD

[/ QUOTE ]

Clarkmeister how can you say that? Have you and your buddy Dynasty been taking stupid pills lately? His post wasn't even funny.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
His post wasn't even funny.

[/ QUOTE ]
yes, yes it was.

fim

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What this excerpt fails to point out is that animals are delicious.

[/ QUOTE ]

POTD

[/ QUOTE ]

Clarkmeister how can you say that? Have you and your buddy Dynasty been taking stupid pills lately? His post wasn't even funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it was funny. I just said it was the POTD. Look, it succinctly points out by far the biggest flaw in the posted excerpt. Can't argue with facts.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are exactly right.

Bruiser needs a girl. Then maybe he will stop making posts like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Jake - I thought I'd point out that you didn't contribute anything to this thread besides unashamed ass-kissing. You are worthless. Please leave the forum.


Hey Bruiser, this is very interesting stuff. Thanks for the info, and I will definitely look into it more for myself. Don't listen to the chest-thumpers who can never acknowledge another lifestyle outside of their own pathetic little worlds.
-James

[Jakesta]

Screw you, seriously.

[BusterStacks]

I suppose rum is much better for you than steak.

http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~jayakkad/dannyashman/IMG_3404.jpg

[ QUOTE ]
If you followed that link I put up and read the 2nd review on amazon you would see that the author and many highly credible scientists support the ideas in the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you read the book Protein Power, you will find that the doctor/authors of that book advocating eating a lot of meat and their diet plan is also backed up by many scientific studies.

In fact, they advocate getting many of your calories from fat and say that a high-carb diet (which many vegetarians eat) lead to diabetes and heart disease.

There are scientific studies out there to prove pretty much whatever you want to prove.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Screw you, seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

450 posts in 4 days, and not one adds any substance except asskissing and insults. Get some sleep, buddy, and try to come up with a decent comeback when you get back from 9th period tomorrow.
-James

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
ey Jake - I thought I'd point out that you didn't contribute anything to this thread besides unashamed ass-kissing

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Bruiser, this is very interesting stuff. Thanks for the info, and I will definitely look into it more for myself. Don't listen to the chest-thumpers who can never acknowledge another lifestyle outside of their own pathetic little worlds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. How does Bruiser's toosh taste?

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
Heh. How does Bruiser's toosh taste?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask Daryn. Oh snap, I couldn't resist.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ey Jake - I thought I'd point out that you didn't contribute anything to this thread besides unashamed ass-kissing

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Bruiser, this is very interesting stuff. Thanks for the info, and I will definitely look into it more for myself. Don't listen to the chest-thumpers who can never acknowledge another lifestyle outside of their own pathetic little worlds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. How does Bruiser's toosh taste?

[/ QUOTE ]

Another clever come back. Perhaps you should read this thread if you think I make a habit out of kissing Bruiser's ass:

Me yelling at Bruiser (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=mediumholdem&Number=245469 5&Forum=All_Forums&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=99&Ma in=2450910&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=4794&dat erange=1&newerval=1&newertype=m&olderval=&oldertyp e=&bodyprev=#Post2454695)

I'm sorry that I happen to be interested by different points of view instead a bunch of internet yes-men high-fiving eachother and trying their best to embarass someone who is actually presenting a pretty interesting topic for discussion.
-James

[Jakesta]

No, James, I don't kiss too many people's asses.

And maybe you haven't noticed, but Bruiser has posted topics very similar to this many times before.

[wacki]

What is wrong with you guys. Seriously??? Bruiser brings in some very interesting scientific data that can be used to drastically improve your health and he gets castrated?!?!?

If he said "Don't hurt the fuzzy animals." I would understand. But he didn't do that. He had a sound argument with data to support. Instead of saying "Thanks for looking out for my health" you guys rip him apart. WTF??!?!?

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
No, James, I don't kiss too many people's asses.

And maybe you haven't noticed, but Bruiser has posted topics very similar to this many times before.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many times before? You've only been a member of the forum for 4 days. I guess you are some other idiot who nobody likes who had to make a new handle so that he'd stop being made fun of at every turn. Then again, you've read the forums for 14 hours a day for the last 4 days(long weekend from high school, I know), so you've probably spent a lot of time studying the archives for Bruiser's past posts.
-James

[KungFuSandwich]

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't about animal cruelty, this is about health,

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
What astounds me though is how poorly informed people are on this subject, not just because of apathy but because of misinformation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is so many people feel so strongly against eating animals that even if a animal free diet caused your wang to fall off they would tout its benifits in preventing STD's

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry that I happen to be interested by different points of view instead a bunch of internet yes-men high-fiving eachother and trying their best to embarass someone who is actually presenting a pretty interesting topic for discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some cheese with that whine, sir?

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
*** You are ignoring this user ***


[/ QUOTE ]

Congrats you set multiple records today. Zeno told you to fall asleep and never wake up. You've made ~500 posts in 3 days and I am now ignoring you. You are the biggest waste of skin I've seen on 2+2.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
What is wrong with you guys. Seriously??? Bruiser brings in some very interesting scientific data that can be used to drastically improve your health and he gets castrated?!?!?

If he said "Don't hurt the fuzzy animals." I would understand. But he didn't do that. He had a sound argument with data to support. Instead of saying "Thanks for looking out for my health" you guys rip him apart. WTF??!?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

Other than rundownhouse's post, where exactly do you see him getting "ripped apart"? Chill.

[Jakesta]

I don't care, your avatar describes you perfectly.

[kipin]

Bruiser,

How do you explain this photo I found of you?
http://img286.echo.cx/img286/894/steakdinner6hp.jpg

[cnfuzzd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Screw you, seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

450 posts in 4 days, and not one adds any substance except asskissing and insults. Get some sleep, buddy, and try to come up with a decent comeback when you get back from 9th period tomorrow.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

oh man, now thats some pwnage,,,

peace

john nickle

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
Other than rundownhouse's post, where exactly do you see him getting "ripped apart"? Chill.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) listening to socially inept hippies - very irritating

2)Jesus. Not only are you completely socially inept, you seem to swallow every "new," "great" idea you "discover."

3)Bruiser needs a girl. Then maybe he will stop making posts like this.

4)Bruiser needs a hot beef injection in more ways than one.

5)i think you'd be a much better person if you'd have gotten your ass kicked a little more growing up.

hey, i respect your game, but your posts outside the scope of holdem are pretty damn douchey.

fim


Is that good enough???

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry that I happen to be interested by different points of view instead a bunch of internet yes-men high-fiving eachother and trying their best to embarass someone who is actually presenting a pretty interesting topic for discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some cheese with that whine, sir?

[/ QUOTE ]



Wow, two completely cliche insults in a span of 10 minutes. I guess it was too difficult to simply say, "Oh, woops, I guess you don't really kiss Bruiser's ass and I am an unoriginal fvck."

You and Jakesta are on breakneck pace to set the record for the lamest posts in the shortest amount of time. The relative Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa of unoriginality. Pretty impressive stuff.
-James

[Clarkmeister]

So you come up with a quote from the one post I acknowledged, and a bunch of others that are typical OOT nonsense that would have been posted by those people to anything that Bruiser posted. If that's really worthy of spazzing like you did, you better get busy because depending on your settings there could be dozens more threads on the first page alone that need you to help reseize the moral high ground.

[Matt Flynn]

Bruiser,

"But bacon tastes good. Pork chops taste good." - Vincent Vega

I hereby challenge you to crap slots. Delmonico's vs whatever you want. Methinks Boris will want some of that action, but I cannot speak for my buddy. I choose the expensive very-healthy-for-you American red wine either way. We can set price in advance. You would actually be freerolling, because Boris' advice and help in the girlfriend acquisition department is worth everything you ever made playing poker. Boris freerolls on the wine btw.

Medium rare baby. Blue cheese on the salad, and yes I would like surf with my turf.

Matt

[vulturesrow]

Seriously, lighten up dude.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, lighten up dude.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask my friends, I am a pretty easy going guy. But I have no problems pointing out obvious character flaws in other's, especially people who pride themselves on being bullies on an internet forum. Now you should probably stay out of this thread before I hurt your "web-cred" more than I already have.
-James

[Clarkmeister]

What you need is a nice juicy hamburger.

[Stuey]

Chick I knew didn't eat meat she said she didn't need the hate that came with it.

I didn't get it.

I always wanted to try eating less or no meat. Only way to find out if it makes you feel better I guess. Thx for the info bruiser.

[2+2 wannabe]

does the book mention the topic of food shortage throughout the world? feeding animals vegetables and grains that we could be eating adds a "middle-man" to the food supply in the world, and allows the famine that exists.

btw, animals ARE delicious - but i gave them up

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
What you need is a nice juicy hamburger.

[/ QUOTE ]

No chance, I had 4 yesterday during my brother's graduation party that spanned lunch and dinner!
/images/graemlins/blush.gif

-James

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
I always wanted to try eating less or no meat. Only way to find out if it makes you feel better I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

it does - but it's tough, especially if you're a vegan

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
So you come up with a quote from the one post I acknowledged, and a bunch of others that are typical OOT nonsense that would have been posted by those people to anything that Bruiser posted.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry I forgot to leave that one post out as I was scanning the thread.

[ QUOTE ]
If that's really worthy of spazzing like you did, you better get busy because depending on your settings there could be dozens more threads on the first page alone that need you to help reseize the moral high ground.

[/ QUOTE ]

I made one post. I was actually hoping for some insight into this topic. Other than FecalMatter and balkii I don't think anyone attempted to contribute to this thread.

What I find amazing is that you consider what I did more offensive then what people are doing to bruiser. Yes I know OOT is a cesspool but does that mean I can't defend the good people on occasion???

Clarkmeister, to be honest I'm kind of shocked you are saying what you are saying.

Please note I am not way defending bruisers "stupid pills" comment or what repercussions follow. I am simply talking about bruiser getting attacked for posting scientific information that might actually impact your health.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]


What I find amazing is that you consider what I did more offensive then what people are doing to bruiser. Yes I know OOT is a cesspool but does that mean I can't defend the good people on occasion???

Clarkmeister, to be honest I'm kind of shocked you are saying what you are saying.

Please note I am not way defending bruisers "stupid pills" comment or what repercussions follow. I am simply talking about bruiser getting attacked for posting scientific information that might actually impact your health.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was the large dose of !?!?!?!?!?!?! in your post that got to me. Besides, while this post may have merit, Bruiser does post a lot of silly stuff. He's 19, he can't help it. Anyways, by the time you posted it was already just a silly little nonsense thread. You were too late to save it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Besides, that excerpt like *totally* didn't mention the topic of deliciousness!

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Ask my friends, I am a pretty easy going guy. But I have no problems pointing out obvious character flaws in other's, especially people who pride themselves on being bullies on an internet forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are reading way too much into the replies. I really dont think Bruiser needs you to be his knight in shining armor.

[ QUOTE ]
Now you should probably stay out of this thread before I hurt your "web-cred" more than I already have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, ok. Im not too worried about my "web-cred" as you put it. But I guess thanks for trying to salvage it for me.

PS Can I put web-cred on my resume?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
does the book mention the topic of food shortage throughout the world? feeding animals vegetables and grains that we could be eating adds a "middle-man" to the food supply in the world, and allows the famine that exists.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's going from "a bit of a stretch" into the land of "outright fabrication". We still pay farmers to NOT produce food. It's an economic issue, not an availability issue, and feed grain for animals has little to nothing to do with the real problem.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ask my friends, I am a pretty easy going guy. But I have no problems pointing out obvious character flaws in other's, especially people who pride themselves on being bullies on an internet forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are reading way too much into the replies. I really dont think Bruiser needs you to be his knight in shining armor.

[ QUOTE ]
Now you should probably stay out of this thread before I hurt your "web-cred" more than I already have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, ok. Im not too worried about my "web-cred" as you put it. But I guess thanks for trying to salvage it for me.

PS Can I put web-cred on my resume?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was making fun of you for entering this thread simply to insult me. The only reason you would do this is to try and make yourself look good as a feeble attempt to gain acceptance on this forum.

Sorry the thread went to waste Bruiser, still interesting stuff IMO.
-James

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always wanted to try eating less or no meat. Only way to find out if it makes you feel better I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

it does - but it's tough, especially if you're a vegan

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the scientific explanation for people "feeling better" or "having more energy" because they do not get most of their protein from animal sources? I'm curious to see what it is, because it seems like one could just eat those other things on top of their animal protein and still have the same results.
-James

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What this excerpt fails to point out is that animals are delicious.

[/ QUOTE ]

#2516693 - 05/31/05 12:33 AM

POTD

[/ QUOTE ]

Clarkmeister how can you say that? Have you and your buddy Dynasty been taking stupid pills lately? His post wasn't even funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it was funny. I just said it was the POTD. Look, it succinctly points out by far the biggest flaw in the posted excerpt. Can't argue with facts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most animals are delicous. Today, I ate chicken and pig (is that where pepperoni primaryl comes from?). Tomorow, I intend to eat cow.

But, I thought you were making some bizarre time zone joke since your post was made just 33 minutes into the new day.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]

But, I thought you were making some bizarre time zone joke since your post was made just 33 minutes into the new day.

[/ QUOTE ]

No bizarre joke, though I'm on PT, so the post looks like it was a few hours earlier to me.

Even knowing it was early in the new day I'd have to call it POTD. Reminding people how delicious animals are is always sure to bring a smile to my face. I'm a sucker for a good "animals are delicious" joke.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
I was making fun of you for entering this thread simply to insult me. The only reason you would do this is to try and make yourself look good as a feeble attempt to gain acceptance on this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. But your assumption about my motivation was wrong. However, you can rest assured that my desire to "gain acceptance on this (or any internet forum) is nonexistent.
I was just bored and I thought your post was funny. My apologies though.

[DougOzzzz]

Homer : Lisa honey, are you saying you're _never_ going to eat any animal again? What about bacon?
Lisa : No.
Homer : Ham?
Lisa : No.
Homer : Pork chops?
Lisa : Dad! Those all come from the same animal!
Homer : Yeah, right Lisa. A wonderful, magical animal.

[theBruiser500]

Heh, could you please explain this, "I hereby challenge you to crap slots. Delmonico's vs whatever you want." Whatever it is though, I will take you and Boris on no problem. TheBruiser is without fear.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Heh, could you please explain this, "I hereby challenge you to crap slots. Delmonico's vs whatever you want." Whatever it is though, I will take you and Boris on no problem. TheBruiser is without fear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you are posting about eating no meat with a T-Rex avatar.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always wanted to try eating less or no meat. Only way to find out if it makes you feel better I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

it does - but it's tough, especially if you're a vegan

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the scientific explanation for people "feeling better" or "having more energy" because they do not get most of their protein from animal sources? I'm curious to see what it is, because it seems like one could just eat those other things on top of their animal protein and still have the same results.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the frustrating the things about the book and reading about nutrition in general is that a lot of things aren't known. I don't know, but I'm guessing this is one of those things. Very little money (relative to other similar things at least) has been put into the effects of diet on a persons health. The book goes into a lot more detail on this.

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
Reminding people how delicious animals are is always sure to bring a smile to my face. I'm a sucker for a good "animals are delicious" joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, you are posting about eating no meat with a T-Rex avatar.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm starting to like you.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heh, could you please explain this, "I hereby challenge you to crap slots. Delmonico's vs whatever you want." Whatever it is though, I will take you and Boris on no problem. TheBruiser is without fear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you are posting about eating no meat with a T-Rex avatar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, good point, really!

[JTG51]

I once saw a bumper sticker that said, "If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them taste so good?"

[Ulysses]

Bruiser,

Many of your ancestors were eaten by dinosaurs. Do you know why they were fighting dinosaurs? They were fighting dinosaurs so that you, many generations in the future, would be able to eat a steak without worrying about a T-Rex snapping your head off. Not eating meat is an insult to all of those who came before you and gave their lives so someday you could eat some brisket in peace. It's ironic that you posted this message on Memorial Day. Please, think of those that came before you and pay them the proper respect by eating meat.

[Ray Zee]

exactly right bruiser.
go to the cemetary and pay respect for the meat eaters that gave their lives for a good piece of cow. it tasted so goooood.


oh btw masked man, no human was ever eaten by a dinosaur. you are becoming a part of your netflix.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
oh btw masked man, no human was ever eaten by a dinosaur. you are becoming a part of your netflix.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh sure, another one of those "blindly follow science" guys.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all jakester, his joke was not funny so I was not "owned."

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess it should have been "socially inept hippies w/o any sense of what is funny or when they've been pwned."

[jakethebake]

The problem with all these vegetarian health things is that they use crappy samples. All these squares over here have four sides so those triangles over there must have four sides too. Showing what happens to one homogenous group with similar genetic origins on a diet does not tell you anything about what it does for a dissimilar group.

In other words, what this diet does for the Chinese tells me nothing about myself since I'm not Chinese.

I'm standing firmly in the camp that says longevity & heart disease are like 90% genetics. If you're genetically predisposed to heart problems, then you will probably not be helped by eating eggs and bacon everyday. If you're not, then they probably won't hurt you.

[KungFuSandwich]

[ QUOTE ]

Ask my friends, I am a pretty easy going guy. But I have no problems pointing out obvious character flaws in other's

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm, I didnt know being easy going included acting like an arrogant prick.

[KungFuSandwich]

How come none of the meat dissenters addressed my post?
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is so many people feel so strongly against eating animals that even if a animal free diet caused your wang to fall off they would tout its benifits in preventing STD's


[/ QUOTE ]
Drawing those conclusions from the data is definately a streach. As was pointed out in other threads, there were no isolated variables. It could be because they dont eat meat, because of their genetics, because they dont eat preservatives, because they excercize more than us, or because they dont have indoor plumbing. The 0% heart disease could also be because they all die of malnutrition befor they can get heart disease.

If the study came out saying that drinking the blood of a freshly killed fawn prevented heart disease in a remote island tribe do you think all the vegitarians would start doing it? Why not? Its not a moral issue, its for their health.

[Matt Flynn]

Saturday June 18 at 5pm sound good to you? Meet at our office (the bar at the Sports Book at the Bellagio)? We should declare early so we can get reservations, and play early to make it to the donkfest at MGM.

Crap slots: We find three nickel machines lined up. Everyone starts with $10 in nickels in the $2 rolls. Last man with coins buys dinner. You must pull the lever (not use the play button) and all winnings must be recycled through. I.e., you cannot use the bet credits button. If you want to play advanced - well you don't want to play advanced against me and Boris that's for sure.

I am going to enjoy my steak. We shall toast to dinosaurs and vegans.

Matt

P.S. You are right about not eating meat, at least not the red kind. With all the hormones and mercury maybe chicken and fish too. Although sardines are still ok. And sushi is too good to consider the mercury content.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
exactly right bruiser.
go to the cemetary and pay respect for the meat eaters that gave their lives for a good piece of cow. it tasted so goooood.

[/ QUOTE ]

lot of truth there.

[theBruiser500]

"The problem with all these vegetarian health things is that they use crappy samples."

"In other words, what this diet does for the Chinese tells me nothing about myself since I'm not Chinese. "

"I'm standing firmly in the camp that says longevity & heart disease are like 90% genetics. "

Not really, this is wishful thinking not based on the scientific evidence. The China Project did a broad survey of the people that live in China who are genetically similar. It found that as animal food consumption went up so did coronary heart diseases. What does that tell you?

All Chinese that have great health in China then move to the West and adopt our diet than start having health problems. And this goes for every every country's people that have no health problems when living in their country with their diet, they get the same problems we do when adopting our diet. There are so many points against what you're saying it is too frustrating typing it out here. Your points are ignorant, just read the book.

[radek2166]

Someone pass me the steak!!!!!!

[Jakesta]

Bruiser, why are you so obsessed with this vegetarian stuff? Can't you just realize that people have differeing views and stop trying to convert them to your way of life?

[theBruiser500]

"P.S. You are right about not eating meat, at least not the red kind. With all the hormones and mercury maybe chicken and fish too. Although sardines are still ok. And sushi is too good to consider the mercury content. "

My friend says they can't get random fish from the sea and serve it up raw becuase people could get seriously sick. He thinks that sushi fish are farmed somewhere and don't have mercury in them although this is all conjecture. Sushi is the best.

[Jakesta]

And to be honest, this is similar to the Jesus guy posting all of those threads about being saved, although he is much more annoying than you and does it with a higher frequency.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
He thinks that sushi fish are farmed somewhere and don't have mercury in them although this is all conjecture.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's pretty far off on this one, for what it's worth.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
All Chinese that have great health in China then move to the West and adopt our diet than start having health problems. And this goes for every every country's people that have no health problems when living in their country with their diet, they get the same problems we do when adopting our diet. There are so many points against what you're saying it is too frustrating typing it out here. Your points are ignorant, just read the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

You either misread what I said, or didn't think this through.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
And to be honest, this is similar to the Jesus guy posting all of those threads about being saved, although he is much more annoying than you and does it with a higher frequency.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. This is completely different. People always told him that his claims that vegetarianism being healthier were without substance, so he's posted substance. It is informative and could help people's lifestyles out.

In other news, I had a steak the other day and for the first time ever, liked it. I now hate ribs though. They are disgusting.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
And to be honest, this is similar to the Jesus guy posting all of those threads about being saved, although he is much more annoying than you and does it with a higher frequency.

[/ QUOTE ]
You complaining about someone starting 3-4 related threads is just awesome.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
I now hate ribs though. They are disgusting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be beaten to death with a pig carcass for this sacrelige.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I now hate ribs though. They are disgusting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be beaten to death with a pig carcass for this sacrelige.

[/ QUOTE ]

I figure it will be the same as steak. As soon as I have some good ribs, I'll like them. However more likely it will be like lobster, which I like, but it's really not worth the effort. I still maintain that pizza >>>>>> all food.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
As soon as I have some good ribs, I'll like them.

[/ QUOTE ]

When yopu get back down to Florida, let me know. I smoked some ribs Sunday. Home made rub from my Dad's BBQ restaurant recipe. A little Stubbs sauce. They were awesome.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
this study examines more than 350 variables of health and nutrition with surveys from 6,500 adults in 65 counties, representing 2,500 counties across rural China and Taiwan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course 6,500 adults from China and Taiwan are an accurate representation of the entire world's diverse ethnic and multi-cultural population of 6,500,000,000.

Eat meat, it's good. Add veggies, nothing like a baked potato and some butter right next to that juicy Filet!

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
What this excerpt fails to point out is that animals are delicious.

[/ QUOTE ]
The beauty of a vegetarian diet is that, even if you don't live longer, it will seem longer

[Matt Flynn]

the challenge stands sir.

[CORed]

Vegetables are not food. Vegetables are what food eats.

Fruits are vegetables that try to fool you by tasting good.

Mushrooms are something that grows on vegetables after food is done with them.

[cnfuzzd]

So essentially the study concluded that eating less meat was good for you? Were there any conclusive studies that said that that completely abstaining from meat offered a much more profound benefit over, say, cutting your consumption of meat by 50% or so? Obviously, the gorging of oneself on red meat every day is probably not for the best, but to argue that one should give up meat completely is completely dogmatic, as you are then becoming just as biasedly opinionated as those who refuse to consider that meat might be bad.

FWIW bruiser, the chances of the average american who simply gives up meat obtaining these health benefits is not as large as you would think, given the utterly disgusting ways in which our foods are processed. Preservatives, pesticides, fertilizers, artificial flavorings, and other random checmicals, not to mention the influx of purely empty calories that most americans enjoy on a steady basis are poisoning theis country. Other than adopting the totally vegan natural-foods lifestyle will you be able to obtain the full benefits of the lifestyle which this book seems to promote. And even when you do adopt that lifestyle, industrial pollution, bioterrorism or random criminal acts deter your health benefits. So you decide to move to the middle of the pristine arctic or pacific northwest wilderness. And then you get eaten by a bear. Who goes on to die of heart disease. Lifes a bitch, isn't it?

peace

john nickle

[TheCodeDog]

I think Charles Barkley put it best: "I don't trust people that don't eat meat. Hey Kevin, you know what the difference between me and you is? When I die, I'll die because I was eating bad food. When you die, they'll say 'wooo that Kevin, he as dead as Charles'"

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
the challenge stands sir.

[/ QUOTE ]

i accept the challenge of course, was there ever any doubt? i am not scared you flynn, goodluck, you will need it guy.

[theBruiser500]

cnfuzzzed you raise a couple of interesting points. The first one which is commonly held is that eating a little bit of meat is okay for you. Which is intuitive and logical, moderation is generally a good idea. However, studies of animal food consumption show that the health benefits continue all the way from eating a little bit of meat all the way down to eating no meat. I don't remember exactly what the book said about this although it did bring it up, although... not in as much detail as would have been nice. He likened it to cigarettes, if someone has a cigarette problem would you tell them to stop or to just cut down to one pack a day? (More people die from diet related problems than cigarettes).

ALso you are righ ton your other point, if you change from eating meat to eating refined foods, more cheese and candy bars you probably won't benefit too much. He emphasizes whole foods and vegetables and fruit. Virtually no one does that here, but 1 billion people do it in China and they reap the benefits.

"Other than adopting the totally vegan natural-foods lifestyle will you be able to obtain the full benefits of the lifestyle which this book seems to promote"

That is exactly what he recommends, a vegan lifestyle. Jaketheblake I have no idea what you're getting at here but there is absolutely no way 90% of heart disease is genetic that is a joke. If you want to learn about this for real read this book I am not going to take the time to straighten you and all the other clowns on this board out.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
There are so many points against what you're saying it is too frustrating typing it out here. Your points are ignorant, just read the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is starting to sound like a global warming thread. One or two people posting some scientific data and 100 insouciant people too lazy to do a google search attempting a repartee but succeeding only in creating a bunch of heedless babble.

I love the taste of flesh, in fact nothing would make me happier then a diet consisting solely of red meat served au jus, alcoholic beverages, and the occasional breast milk for dessert. Still, I really would of liked to learn more about this subject. This thread makes me wish there was sapian al la carte at the local bistro.

-Timon

[Inthacup]

au jus

[itsmesteve]

poverty causes hunger, not eating animals. although it is true that we use more grain to feed livestock than we could just eat ourselves, the concepts of supply and demand drive production and consumption decisions. If people could afford food, people would sell it to them. (IE, if there was more demand in the form of hungry people who could afford food, more food would be producecd).

(by the way, i don't eat animals.)

[wacki]

Ehh... I changed it. Still I've seen many a resteraunt spell is Au-Ju and au jus. I've even seen is spelled Au Ju` I figured they were all correct.

Au-Ju
http://www.cateringoc.com/customcatering.asp
http://www.ruby-lounge.com/corpmenu.htm
http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/dining/25994,0,5838054,reviews.venue?page=1

Au-Ju`
http://www.thesatisfiedfrog.com/menu.htm

ehhh that serves the point.

[SomethingClever]

Voice of reason

1) Nothing is good in excess.

2) Animals are delicious

3) Heart disease, cancer, gangrene, bubonic plague, genital warts, the whooping cough and most other ills are more attributable to a complete and utter lack of physical activity than they are to poor diet. IMO.

4) Grill a steak / have a portobello burger - it doesn't matter as long as you switch the two up every now and then. And get off your damn ass and exercise!

[itsmesteve]

You know drugs are tested for safety on rats, right. . .
i mean, they're probably slightly less genetically similar to us then the chinese, don't ya think?

[cnfuzzd]

[ QUOTE ]
cnfuzzzed you raise a couple of interesting points. The first one which is commonly held is that eating a little bit of meat is okay for you. Which is intuitive and logical, moderation is generally a good idea. However, studies of animal food consumption show that the health benefits continue all the way from eating a little bit of meat all the way down to eating no meat. I don't remember exactly what the book said about this although it did bring it up, although... not in as much detail as would have been nice. He likened it to cigarettes, if someone has a cigarette problem would you tell them to stop or to just cut down to one pack a day? (More people die from diet related problems than cigarettes).

ALso you are righ ton your other point, if you change from eating meat to eating refined foods, more cheese and candy bars you probably won't benefit too much. He emphasizes whole foods and vegetables and fruit. Virtually no one does that here, but 1 billion people do it in China and they reap the benefits.


[/ QUOTE ]

You arent making coherent points here.

First, you misunderstood my original point, which was not one in favor of moderation. Instead i was saying that while one does obtain a healthier lifestyle by completely eliminating meat from their diet, the benefits from reducing your meat consumption by 50% might also be quite substantial, while still allowing the individual to partake in something they enjoy. I was pointing out that these studies never prove that their is an exponential accrual of benefits from a linear decrease in meat consumption. Of course, it is healthiest to not eat any meat, but in our culture that is unlikely to be an appealing road for many, and im always quite suspicious of those who adopt this attitude given that the way our socio-economic structure is organised, its near impossible to truly engage in a healthy lifestyle without resorting to a most extreme form of hermitism. And then you get eaten by the bear.

[ QUOTE ]
ALso you are righ ton your other point, if you change from eating meat to eating refined foods, more cheese and candy bars you probably won't benefit too much. He emphasizes whole foods and vegetables and fruit. Virtually no one does that here, but 1 billion people do it in China and they reap the benefits.

"Other than adopting the totally vegan natural-foods lifestyle will you be able to obtain the full benefits of the lifestyle which this book seems to promote"

That is exactly what he recommends, a vegan lifestyle.

[/ QUOTE ]


A vegan lifestyle is almost always an excersize in self-deulsion. While the claim that a meat based diet is bad for the environment is generally true, it ignores the fact that the general modes of production in western culture is also generally very bad for the envrionment. The air we breathe, the water we drink, and the dirt we walk on are considered by our culture to be resources at out disposal.(wether or not this is justified is an entirely different subject that more appropriately belongs in politics.)

Essentially, to justify a vegan lifestyle, you must also give up driving a car, products from the mass agriculture industry, using most products, and especially cutout your electricity consumption. Given that most vegans dont do this, its assumed that they, usually unconsciously, make a compromise with themselves about what degree of sacrifice they are willing to live with to pursue thier goals of healthy living and environmental safety. This is HIGHLY similiar to the ones that most meat eaters engage in to justify not eliminating meat from their diet. Interesting, wouldnt you say?

There is some argument to be made about moral culpability, signals, and facilitating condiitons favorable to the creation of social movements, but as these are primarily all argued from the "deep ecology" perspective, and not from the anthrocentric view point of health benefits, i dont think they are really relevent.


peace

john nickle

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
You know drugs are tested for safety on rats, right. . .
i mean, they're probably slightly less genetically similar to us then the chinese, don't ya think?

[/ QUOTE ]

They are initially tested on rats/pigs/monkeys/etc. THEN they're tested on people. The tests on animals aren't enough to show they work. They don't just start selling a drug that has only been tested on rats.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
i am not scared you flynn

[/ QUOTE ]


i will make the reservations and preorder my steak and "I Busted theBruiser500" t-shirt. oh and lobster. and salad. and column A of the appetizers. and a couple of wine selections that should be most pleasing for those of us who are not paying for it. keep in mind Boris freerolls on the wine: we play a side pot for that. one advantage for you: i don't eat desert. however, who could turn down a cheese plate at the end of a meal followed by brandy and cigars. we will have to get input from diablo and j a sucker on the latter selections.

bring a lot of money.

matt

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
"I Busted theBruiser500" t-shirt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you playing any televised events? I want to see you wearing that. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[theBruiser500]

"You arent making coherent points here. "

On that first point I don't think we disagreed, and I still don't agree for the most part with what you say. My analogy to smoking cigarettes still stands though. Also I don't know why you need to be "suspicious" of a complete vegeterian. I'm not exaclty sure what you're getting at here. There are other things to do to be healthier like live out of the city where there is no smog but diet is HUGE and cutting meat consumption by half vs. cutting it by 100% is HUGE. This is not a dogmatic change where other changes would have more practical benefits, changing your diet could have the biggest practical effect.

"A vegan lifestyle is almost always an excersize in self-deulsion"

I don't agree. First of all you don't give any health arguments and that's what this is about healt, cheese and milk are bad for you too just like meat you don't adress that. But just to adress your points about the environemtn. I was debating a friend about this recently and he brought up the same point and I think i thas some merit. However, I don't agree. The meat industry disproportionately affects the environment. Rainforest, water consumpition, pollution but that's another topic.

"This is HIGHLY similiar to the ones that most meat eaters engage in to justify not eliminating meat from their diet. Interesting, wouldnt you say?"

I agree that there is a calculus that takes place, but in my mind this calculus dictates not eating meat. With the things you mentioned "car, products from the mass agriculture industry, using most products, and especially cutout your electricity consumption" the alternatives are too tough and I couldn't live without that stuff. However, with meat the alternative is right in front of you, just eat vegetables.

[theBruiser500]

sorry my last post is kind of sloppy, hope it makes sense have to go frisbee time baby

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
100 insouciant people too lazy to do a google search attempting a repartee but succeeding only in creating a bunch of heedless babble.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Still, I really would of liked to learn more about this subject.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. It like totally sucks that people are too lazy to do a google search or any other research to educate you on this matter that interests you.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah. It like totally sucks that people are too lazy to do a google search or any other research to educate you on this matter that interests you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. So instead of acting like they know what they are talking about, they should shut the [censored] up. I haven't formed an opinion on this type of diet yet, but when I do, I surely will provide links and data and a well thought out argument. Then I expect to be attacked by another imbecile like yourself.

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't formed an opinion on this type of diet yet, but when I do, I surely will provide links and data and a well thought out argument. Then I expect to be attacked by another imbecile like yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were you to provide well thought out content as opposed to prattle about how the lack of same disappoints, I suspect you'd attract a different kind of imbecile. But I do consider myself put on notice, now you are actually threatening to inform yourself rather than complaining about others' unwillingness to do so. Wow.

[cnfuzzd]

[ QUOTE ]
On that first point I don't think we disagreed, and I still don't agree for the most part with what you say. My analogy to smoking cigarettes still stands though. Also I don't know why you need to be "suspicious" of a complete vegeterian. I'm not exaclty sure what you're getting at here. There are other things to do to be healthier like live out of the city where there is no smog but diet is HUGE and cutting meat consumption by half vs. cutting it by 100% is HUGE. This is not a dogmatic change where other changes would have more practical benefits, changing your diet could have the biggest practical effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, your cigarette analogy doesnt apply. First, youve already agreed that most people have a decision calculus based on finding a balance between indulgence/convienence and personal betterment/long term benefits. Therefore, while it might be appropriate for you to give up eating all meat (the quitting smoking completely option), someone else might, justifiably, decide to reduce their consumption of meat by 50%. They will still recieve some degree of health benefits, and fulfill their desire to enjoy eating meat. Since you cant tell them that there are benefits that they will get ONLY from giving up ALL meat, there is no justifiable way to say that everyone should stop eating meat.

Also, my arguments about the other factors that are ravaging our health (such as industrial pollution or processed foods) is that essentially the health arguments being advanced for vegetarianism are almost always engaging in that same scientific reductionism that the author of The China Study condemns. For instance, while most non-industrialized countries rarely have incidences of cancer, this could be just as easily a confluence of events in the studied lifestyle from reduced meat consumption, to lack of exposure to artificial pollutants to non-existence of processed chemicals in their environment. As for heart disease, it is almost certainly a working hypothesis that some ethnic groups are more susceptible to suffer from heart attacks and such, (though diet and excersize certainly contribute to reducing those chances).

*Most* vegetarians use these facts to begin a crusade against anyone who eats meat, and its usually as well thought out as getting a hooker, all zeal and excitement, with little though for the practacalities of the situation. The simple truth is, that most people would see tremendous health benefits from quitting their current job, moving into the woods, meditating for several hours a day, and spending the rest of their time excersing their bodies into peak condition, yet most people are unwilling to do such. They simply dont find it convienant.


[ QUOTE ]
A vegan lifestyle is almost always an excersize in self-deulsion"

I don't agree. First of all you don't give any health arguments and that's what this is about healt, cheese and milk are bad for you too just like meat you don't adress that. But just to adress your points about the environemtn. I was debating a friend about this recently and he brought up the same point and I think i thas some merit. However, I don't agree. The meat industry disproportionately affects the environment. Rainforest, water consumpition, pollution but that's another topic.


[/ QUOTE ]

First, cheese and milk arent that great for you, but how much have you really researched the vegan diet? Unfermented soy products are thought to be fairly unhealthy, vegtables are usually grown in unfavorable conditions, and, more importantly, almost all these studies which are brought up to support the virtue of vegetarian diet are based on studies of ethnic diets which do in fact consist of some meat.

Second, as to my argument about the environment, i was not trying to imply that the meat industry is bad for the environment, which it clearly is, but instead that there are so many environment considerations to consider when discussing questions of health that, while diet is a significant factor, to attempt to live a healthy lifestyle while living anywhere near a metroplitan area is an excersize in futility. This is where my suspicions of vegans and vegetarians is roused, because they either focus solely on the issue of health benefits, or tout their moral superiority that they gain from not killing baby cows. Given that the health benefits, while certainly tangible, are usually arrived at with some cloudy thinking, especially since you can achieve the same benefits (to a lesser degree) by reducing your meat consumption, I tend to suspect that almost all non-meat eaters have a huge superiority complex that they are waiting to take out of the closet and bash us carnivores about the head and shoulders with.

(incidentally, to suggest that the food production industry does more enviromental harm than, say, the utilities or automotive industry is kind of laughable.)

[ QUOTE ]
This is HIGHLY similiar to the ones that most meat eaters engage in to justify not eliminating meat from their diet. Interesting, wouldnt you say?"

I agree that there is a calculus that takes place, but in my mind this calculus dictates not eating meat. With the things you mentioned "car, products from the mass agriculture industry, using most products, and especially cutout your electricity consumption" the alternatives are too tough and I couldn't live without that stuff. However, with meat the alternative is right in front of you, just eat vegetables.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is fine for YOU, and YOU are happy with your decision. Others dont feel the same way, and, while they recognize that there are health benefits to be gleaned from abstaining from meat, some either dont care, or are unwillingly to commit themselves to that degree of sacrifice. Not only that, but to attempt to claim that EVERYONE SHOULD STOP EATING MEAT is kind of silly, and more than just a touch condescending.

That having been said, i applaud your new found social awareness. The key is to understand *why* you think the way you do, so as to best understand where you are going.

peace

john nickle

[wacki]

Shemp,
[ QUOTE ]
now you are actually threatening to inform yourself rather than complaining about others' unwillingness to do so. Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reread my post, then reread your post. Now don't you feel stupid?


Bruiser, sorry I'm clogging up your thread. I won't respond anymore to these guys. I just felt like I had to say something.


From cnfuzzd
[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, to justify a vegan lifestyle, you must also give up driving a car, products from the mass agriculture industry, using most products, and especially cutout your electricity consumption.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do cars and electricity users of animal products??? Ok, there is leather seats but not all cars have leather seats.

Also this post isn't about becoming vegan or even saving the furry animals. It's about animal protein being unhealthy for consumption. I'm sure you knew that though.

[cnfuzzd]

[ QUOTE ]
Shemp,
[ QUOTE ]
now you are actually threatening to inform yourself rather than complaining about others' unwillingness to do so. Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reread my post, then reread your post. Now don't you feel stupid?


Bruiser, sorry I'm clogging up your thread. I won't respond anymore to these guys. I just felt like I had to say something.


From cnfuzzd
[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, to justify a vegan lifestyle, you must also give up driving a car, products from the mass agriculture industry, using most products, and especially cutout your electricity consumption.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do cars and electricity users of animal products??? Ok, there is leather seats but not all cars have leather seats.

Also this post isn't about becoming vegan or even saving the furry animals. It's about animal protein being unhealthy for consumption. I'm sure you knew that though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just for the record, what i was trying (badly) to say, was that to adopt a vegan lifestyle for health reasons seems kind of silly since everyday one engages in activities that also harm your health, or contribute to a general degredation of the environment that supports your health. I have often seen proclaimed vegans eating fruit that i know was sprayed with pesticides and fertilizers deemed "safe" but in no way thoroughly tested. I have had a vegetarian friend tell me about the evils of eating meat (and smoking to boot) while we were tooling around in his new SUV, windows down, breathing in car exhaust and particulates. I understand that there are benefits to reducing ones intake of animal tissue and fat, however, to engage in complete abstinence of it for all the wonderfull health reasons seems somewhat silly and egotistical.

And you know im not nearly as good at google as you are, so i figure i would just assert my opinion until you came along with your eighteen thousand graphs and essays, and gave me my new one. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

peace

john nickle

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
And you know im not nearly as good at google as you are, so i figure i would just assert my opinion until you came along with your eighteen thousand graphs and essays, and gave me my new one.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine. My google comment was not aimed at you. You are very gifted at philosophical debate. That is something you really can't google.

[OtisTheMarsupial]

[ QUOTE ]
*Most* vegetarians use these facts to begin a crusade against anyone who eats meat, and its usually as well thought out as getting a hooker, all zeal and excitement, with little though for the practacalities of the situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not true. You're talking about a *vocal* minority, not the majority.

Yes, many people would gain health benefits from doing the things you said but they don't think they are convenient. Exercising regularly, eating a healthy diet (regardless of whether or not it contains meat) refraining from smoking are all "inconvenient" to someone who doesn't care about their health. Convenience is a poor excuse.

Besides, vegetarianism is becoming more and more "convenient" because more food options are available today than they were 10, 20, 30 years ago.

Nothin you said detracts from the fact that vegetarianism is healthy.

[OtisTheMarsupial]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, to justify a vegan lifestyle, you must also give up driving a car, products from the mass agriculture industry, using most products, and especially cutout your electricity consumption.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Rethink your logic here, dude.


Turn the slippery slope around:
If you want to be a meat eater, why dont you eat your cat and dog? Why race horses when you can eat them? Why don't you eat Dead or Jakesta? Why don't you start a kitten farm? What should we do about over-population? Let's just eat 'em.


You see how silly that sounds? Now please don't tell me I'm being hypocritical if I'm vegetarian yet still drive a car or wear leather hiking boots.

[cnfuzzd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, to justify a vegan lifestyle, you must also give up driving a car, products from the mass agriculture industry, using most products, and especially cutout your electricity consumption.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Rethink your logic here, dude.


Turn the slippery slope around:
If you want to be a meat eater, why dont you eat your cat and dog? Why race horses when you can eat them? Why don't you eat Dead or Jakesta? Why don't you start a kitten farm? What should we do about over-population? Let's just eat 'em.


You see how silly that sounds? Now please don't tell me I'm being hypocritical if I'm vegetarian yet still drive a car or wear leather hiking boots.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, that doesnt sound silly. I would eat all those things if they were slaughtered, butchered, and grilled over a pecan wood flame with some decent seasonings. In fact, i was discussing with wacki the other day about how my ideal pet is a rabbit. That way, if i ever get tired of having a pet, i can always have a snack instead.

I udnerstand your point, however, and it is well taken. I used to be a vegetarian, and hated the others that would DEMAND to go to certain restaurants and dictate plans to the magority. Vegetarianism is certainly a healthy lifestyle, and one perfectly acceptable to alot of people. I just get tired of seeing it foisted on people who probably already know most of the facts being presented.

marsupials *are* plant-eaters, arent they?

peace

john nickle

[theBruiser500]

shemp, please leave my thread

[theBruiser500]

btw cnfuzed going out now will try and respond to your post which i haven't read yet soon

[Blarg]

It sounds like you've conflated two ideas somehow; one of your sentences doesn't quite make sense.

It's not that "animal protein is so important that vegeterians have problems getting it." These two things are unrelated. It's simply that balanced protein is quite important, and vegetarians don't get it automatically from their diets. They have to work at it. Though some traditional vegetarian cultures have balanced diets, most people trying to put together a vegetarian lifestyle from scratch don't do it very well.

For vegetarians to get balanced protein, they generally have to know a lot more about nutrition than non-vegetarians do, in order to mix their proteins properly. Most vegeterians probably don't know much more about nutrition than non-vegeterians do, though, and if they do, often don't act accordingly. They stick to the food combinations they like best or are easiest to make, just like everyone else does. That's bad for a vegetarian's health in particular, as a meat-eater will get balanced proteins by eating any meat, even in small portions, so his ignorance has an inherent safety net.

Vegetarians need to combine the right legumes, vegetables, and grains in every meal if they want a balanced diet, which many frankly can't be bothered with. That's probably why so many American vegetarians look like crap. And vegetarians who get on fad diets are probably in even worse shape than non-vegetarians, as they don't have the balanced protein of meat as a safety net to help pull them through the nosedives into bad health that crazy diets often suggest. Vegetarianism can't be "indulged in" as if it were yet another crazy diet fad. It has to be done right.

Fortunately, tofu is very well balanced protein, and its blandness means it can mix into everything from soups to spaghetti to salads almost invisibly. You don't really have to "like it," because you'll barely notice it. Or if you want to marinate it or fry it, etc., for more flavor, you can go that route too. Just by adding tofu, a sloppy vegetarian can give their meals balanced, zero-cholesterol, high-quality protein.

There's also the "sorta" vegetarian route, which uses meat very sparingly, the way some Asian cultures do, as a garnish of sorts. Cutting back on meats, especially red meats, is very healthy, but you don't need to eliminate all meat to start gaining a lot of health benefits.

People used to eating a lot of processed foods, sugars, starches, and fatty meats can gain substantial health benefits they can really feel(and notice when looking at their waistline) just by cutting back on the junk and adding in a lot more of the stuff eaten by people who feel they should take a little more responsibility for their health.

For those who wish to eat substantially, but not entirely, vegetarian for the health benefits, chicken and fish have very little fat, too. Even a little chicken and fish added to an otherwise vegetarian diet will still add a lot of balanced protein, and help give you that "not hungry again an hour later" feeling that pure vegetarianism sometimes does, without necessitating the consumption of a lot of starches(potatoes, rice) to give a feeling of "fullness."

Anyway, however far you go on a "sliding scale" toward more vegetarian eating habits, as long as you maintain your access to balanced protein, it will be an improvement.

And nicely enough, whether anyone chooses to believe it or not, vegetarians -- the healthy ones who eat right, anyway -- really DO have more energy. It's quite noticeable.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
And believe it or not, vegetarians -- the healthy ones who eat right, anyway -- really DO have more energy. It's quite noticeable.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my main concern. Anyone have any good cook books on how to eat vegetarian? Or atleast minimize the meat? I want to experiment with it for the sole purpose of finding out if I will gain more energy, mental power, etc.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ask my friends, I am a pretty easy going guy. But I have no problems pointing out obvious character flaws in other's

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm, I didnt know being easy going included acting like an arrogant prick.

[/ QUOTE ]

If acting like an arrogant prick is pointing out how ridiculous someone is being when they are making fun of me or other people(like bruiser) for no reason, then call me an arrogant prick.
-James

[david050173]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothin you said detracts from the fact that vegetarianism is healthy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Compared to what? I am 100% confidant that I could devise a diet with meat that would be just as healthy. It might have much less meat (ie meat is a flavor not the main course) than some people are used to. I can also design vegitarian diets where the person will be dead in a couple of years of malnutrition.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
I am 100% confidant that I could devise a diet with meat that would be just as healthy. It might have much less meat (ie meat is a flavor not the main course) than some people are used to. I can also design vegitarian diets where the person will be dead in a couple of years of malnutrition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you are a MD/Ph.D. and/or have tons of supporting research, it's going to be hard to take your word on that one.

[The Stranger]

Okay, take this past Wednesday for example. I worked eleven hours with no lunch. I drove about 120 miles averaging less than 30MPH, loading a total of 5,600 lbs of boxes into my box truck, with busted air conditioning. At 7AM I pick up a 24 ounce Diet Rockstar, two muffins, a gallon of water and a pack of smokes.

When I get back to the office at 6PM, mentally and physically exhausted, and covered in dust, and NEED something to eat, you think that a garden salad with some sprouts and an avocado is going to do the trick?

Seriously dude, you're 19 and still in school. Please don't go around preaching to people about their lifestyles. It is very insulting. Try living in the real world for a little while first.

I appreciated the original post. Information is good, for if I ever need it. But the ensuing debate, what are you trying to accomplish? You are never ever ever going to stop somebody from doing something that they want to do (unless you are able to threaten their life or freedom forceably). So yeah, thanks for the info, but please stop.

[Jakesta]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously dude, you're 19 and still in school. Please don't go around preaching to people about their lifestyles. It is very insulting. Try living in the real world for a little while first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post. And someone should re-post the pic of Bruiser drinking that alcohol too.

[wacki]

http://zata.free.fr/1998/imgs/Lebowski_Stranger.JPG

I worked eleven hours with no lunch. I drove about 120 miles averaging less than 30MPH, loading a total of 5,600 lbs of boxes into my box truck, with busted air conditioning. At 7AM I pick up a 24 ounce Diet Rockstar, two muffins, a gallon of water and a pack of smokes.

When I get back to the office at 6PM, mentally and physically exhausted, and covered in dust, and NEED something to eat, you think that a garden salad with some sprouts and an avocado is going to do the trick?

Seriously dude, you're 19 and still in school. Please don't go around preaching to people about their lifestyles. It is very insulting. Try living in the real world for a little while first.


Your avatar could not fit this post better.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Vegetables are not food. Vegetables are what food eats.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bravo!

[A Friggin Cow]

screw you Bruiser.

[theBruiser500]

Blarg I've read about this idea of vegeterians needing to mix vegetables carefully to get the right sort of proteins but it sounds like pseudo-science to me. What do you base this on?

Americans eat 15-16% of their calories in protein, the recommended allownace is 10% (though some give it much higher), and the amount you actually need based on science to replace the protein you lose in your body is 6%. That's what Chinese eat, about 6% protein from mostly vegetables and they don't think much about mixing things up to get the right proteins. The obvious response of course is that their diet coincidentally coincides with the right mixing to get hte right proteins... but what is more likely, this, or all vegetables proteins are fine and this is idea of animal proteins being better and vegetables proteins needing to be mixed carefully is a myth?

One more thing, I found this VERY interesting. Different sorts of proteins were tested on rats to find out which ones were "better." Animal proteins made rats grow the fastest and ever since they have been referred to as the best kind of protein. They are not the best because they are healthiest, just because they induce fast growth.

[theBruiser500]

stranger, where have i "preached" in this thread?

[A Friggin Cow]

Eat me. I'm a tasty and robust source of protein.

Grilled, roasted, baked, fried, smoked, or broiled, it doesn't matter. And I go good with beer.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Eat me. I'm a tasty and robust source of protein.

Grilled, roasted, baked, fried, smoked, or broiled, it doesn't matter. And I go good with beer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif you. So juicy and tasty, so many ways to prepare you..you are the perfect animal.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Eat me. I'm a tasty and robust source of protein.

Grilled, roasted, baked, fried, smoked, or broiled, it doesn't matter. And I go good with beer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif you. So juicy and tasty, so many ways to prepare you..you are the perfect animal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget his other nice qualities. Slow of foot, docile, and easy to slaughter. These are all qualities I appreciate!

[theBruiser500]

cnfuzzd,


"First, your cigarette analogy doesnt apply. First, youve already agreed that most people have a decision calculus"
smokers have the same calculus to make, still don't see why the cigarette analogy doesn't work.

" there is no justifiable way to say that everyone should stop eating meat. "
i never said, nor never would presume to say this

"same scientific reductionism that the author of The China Study condemns."
i definitly agree with you on this point and what you said in your post and have no response.

" As for heart disease, it is almost certainly a working hypothesis that some ethnic groups are more susceptible to suffer from heart attacks '
i don't believe this, please cite some evidence

"The simple truth is, that most people would see tremendous health benefits"... etc.
yeah again i agree, i am just trying to make people aware of another option they have for helping their health.

"vegtables are usually grown in unfavorable conditions"
pesticides? you can get organically grown vegetables. besides that is a small negetive against vegetables. give me tainted vegetables instead of a burger anyday.

"which it clearly is, but instead that there are so many environment considerations to consider when discussing questions of health that, while diet is a significant factor, to attempt to live a healthy lifestyle while living anywhere near a metroplitan area is an excersize in futility"
this doesn't really respond to what i said. for some things like a car or no car, electricity or no electricty there is no easy alternative. with meat, you can eat vegetables instead. of course for some people this might not be true, but in general imo it is a fair point. if i'm missing your point again sorry, please clarify.

"I tend to suspect that almost all non-meat eaters have a huge superiority complex that they are waiting to take out of the closet and bash us carnivores about the head and shoulders with."
now that i think about it, two good friends of mine are vegeterian they are very humble and good people. another vegan i just met on AIM seems like a good person too.

"(incidentally, to suggest that the food production industry does more enviromental harm than, say, the utilities or automotive industry is kind of laughable.)"
i'm not saying that, there isn't a clear alternative though except for bikes maybe, or in the city public trasnportation.

"EVERYONE SHOULD STOP EATING MEAT is kind of silly"
okay i see that where i said 'just eat vegetables", that came out wrong i am not trying to tell people what to do here.

[Jakesta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Eat me. I'm a tasty and robust source of protein.

Grilled, roasted, baked, fried, smoked, or broiled, it doesn't matter. And I go good with beer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif you. So juicy and tasty, so many ways to prepare you..you are the perfect animal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget his other nice qualities. Slow of foot, docile, and easy to slaughter. These are all qualities I appreciate!

[/ QUOTE ]

You can also tip them over and make them go Mooo-oooooooo.

[The Stranger]

[ QUOTE ]
stranger, where have i "preached" in this thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, so this is all an intellectual exercise?

People show try to argue that meat isn't as bad for you as some people think, and you go around and around with them. Same for when Peace John Nickle said that maybe cutting down on meat might help people live healthier.

It would be hard for me to believe that you're arguing this so thoroughly without having an agenda.

My main read on your attitude was your response to Clark about "stupid pills."

I think myself and others are saying basically, "I like to eat meat. It tastes good and satisfies my appetite. I know its not the best thing for me, but hey what good is life if you can't enjoy it?"

A man who drinks rum straight out of the bottle ought to understand that logic.

Plus look at the wording on the topic. I find your word choices interesting. Why do you use the word animal instead of meat? Is it for the same reason that anti-abortion people call a fetus a baby?

You used "Animal Based Diet - Very Unhealthy"

Do you think "Meat consumption - Increased Health Risks" would have steered the dialogue differently?

You're right. You did not directly preach. But I made certain inferences about your intent and your tone concerning this subject.

If I am wrong, I apologize.

[theBruiser500]

"I think myself and others are saying basically, "I like to eat meat. It tastes good and satisfies my appetite. I know its not the best thing for me, but hey what good is life if you can't enjoy it?""

the author in the book has an interesting point on this. you will have a hard time enjoying the quality of life if you are afflicted with illness early in life. assuming animal based diets are unhealthy, it's not like you will suddenly drop dead because of it, more likely you'll have a heart problem, or cancer and some other problem and bad diet will be the reason you can't enjoy life while you are still alive (he states this point much more eloquently than me).

"You used "Animal Based Diet - Very Unhealthy""

animal based diet because that includes cheese and dairy whereas 'meat consumption' does not

to be honest, i didn't even want to continue with this thread and didn't want to respond to the posts that keep coming at me, i only did out of respect to the people who made long considerate posts who want to have a discussion.

"If I am wrong, I apologize."
okay, accepted /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[The Stranger]

[ QUOTE ]
screw you Bruiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

MOOOOOOOO!

[BusterStacks]

certain ethnic groups are more susceptible to obesity.

obesity causes caridovascular disease.

Thus, certain ethnic groups are more succeptable to cardiovascular disease.

[theBruiser500]

what ethnic groups, how much more suspectible are they?

[Jakesta]

Black people. Much more.

[BusterStacks]

here's one thing I found using a simple web search:

http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20000516hfat3.asp

[Jakesta]

"Why, when it comes to size, are so many sisters living large?"

[A Friggin Cow]

[ QUOTE ]
Black people. Much more.

[/ QUOTE ]

and studies have shown that skinny Jewish kids who like to wear pink shirts with the collar popped, and post 100+/day talking sh!t on message boards are far more likely to get their asses kicked than other people.

MOOOOOOO!

[BusterStacks]

Disparities in Ghrelin Levels May Explain Racial Differences in Obesity Rates

By Jennifer Warner
WebMD Medical News

Sept. 14, 2004 -- Black women may be more prone to obesity than white women because they are naturally hungrier, a new study shows.

Researchers found black women had significantly higher levels of the hunger hormone ghrelin after eating than white women -- regardless of their weight, calorie intake, or age.

Ghrelin is a hormone released primarily in the stomach, which is thought to trigger hunger. Ghrelin levels increase dramatically before a meal and then are suppressed for about three hours after eating a meal.

Obesity is a growing epidemic in the U.S., but researchers say African Americans are 1.6 times more likely to be obese than whites. Statistics show that 31% of African Americans are obese compared with 20% of whites.

As a result, researchers say black women suffer from higher rates of obesity-related illnesses, such as diabetes and high blood pressure, than white women.

Hunger Hormone May Vary by Race

In this study, published in the September issue of the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, researchers looked at whether differences in ghrelin levels after meals might be related to the racial differences seen in obesity rates.

Forty-three women, 22 white and 21 black, followed a controlled diet for four days, and then blood samples were taken two hours after eating identical meals.

Researchers tested the blood for ghrelin and leptin (another hormone linked to obesity) as well as measured 24-hour cortisol levels using urine tests. Elevated cortisol levels are common among obese persons and in those with poorly controlled diabetes; they increase the risk of heart disease.

The study showed that ghrelin levels after the meal were significantly higher among black women versus white women, even after they controlled for the women's body mass index (BMI, a measure of weight in relation to height used to indicate obesity). Ghrelin levels are inversely related to body weight.

Even after adjusting for factors that might alter the level of ghrelin, obese black women had the highest average ghrelin and leptin levels overall.

In addition, higher ghrelin levels were associated with higher cortisol levels in black women but not in white women.

"These findings suggest subnormal [post-meal] ghrelin expression (or faster ghrelin rebound) in black women, especially the obese, that might play a role in their increased prevalence of obesity and cardiovascular disorders," write researcher Kimberly Brownley, PhD, of the University of North Carolina, and colleagues.

Surprisingly, researchers say they also failed to find the normal inverse relationship between ghrelin levels and obesity. Previous reports showed that ghrelin concentrations declined with rising BMI. But in this study ghrelin levels were not significantly lower in obese compared with nonobese women.

Instead, lower ghrelin levels were associated with greater fat around the midsection in white women, but no such relationship was found in black women.


from: http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?language=english&type=article&article_id =218392039

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Blarg I've read about this idea of vegeterians needing to mix vegetables carefully to get the right sort of proteins but it sounds like pseudo-science to me. What do you base this on?

Americans eat 15-16% of their calories in protein, the recommended allownace is 10% (though some give it much higher), and the amount you actually need based on science to replace the protein you lose in your body is 6%. That's what Chinese eat, about 6% protein from mostly vegetables and they don't think much about mixing things up to get the right proteins. The obvious response of course is that their diet coincidentally coincides with the right mixing to get hte right proteins... but what is more likely, this, or all vegetables proteins are fine and this is idea of animal proteins being better and vegetables proteins needing to be mixed carefully is a myth?

One more thing, I found this VERY interesting. Different sorts of proteins were tested on rats to find out which ones were "better." Animal proteins made rats grow the fastest and ever since they have been referred to as the best kind of protein. They are not the best because they are healthiest, just because they induce fast growth.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's nothing even remotely pseudo-scientific about it. It's actually more than a little preposterous that you would even think it, much less suggest it. You need to read a little more. No, a lot more.

That vegetables tend to be very strong in some proteins and completely lacking or very low in others is just simple fact. There's not a responsible nutritionist on the planet, or responsible guide to vegetarianism, that will tell you any different. Really, that's the way food works in general, so I don't see how it could be surprising to you. Meat is actually the exception, when it comes to protein, because its protein tends to be pretty balanced; eggs even more so.

Everything else offers different shares of different nutrients, and vegetables are no different. There are certain combinations of grains and vegetables that work well to balance protein -- red beans and rice, as I recall, is one of them, a traditional food mix that pans out health-wise. I'm not sure how flawless it is, but from my memory, it covers a lot of the bases.

Vegetarians use legumes in a lot of meals to get their proteins, and particular ones combine with particular grains especially well to make up for each others' special shortcomings. Of course, you don't want to eat the same thing each day, so a responsible vegetarian learns about the different combos so he can stay healthy while still having some variety.

Or, alternatively, tofu is also a very high protein source that from my understanding can take care of that problem all by itself.

Anyway, go read for yourself. At least before you go postulating as pseudo-science what's one of the best known things about vegetarianism and nutrition and not by any stretch of the imagination even slightly in question.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, take this past Wednesday for example. I worked eleven hours with no lunch. I drove about 120 miles averaging less than 30MPH, loading a total of 5,600 lbs of boxes into my box truck, with busted air conditioning. At 7AM I pick up a 24 ounce Diet Rockstar, two muffins, a gallon of water and a pack of smokes.

When I get back to the office at 6PM, mentally and physically exhausted, and covered in dust, and NEED something to eat, you think that a garden salad with some sprouts and an avocado is going to do the trick?

Seriously dude, you're 19 and still in school. Please don't go around preaching to people about their lifestyles. It is very insulting. Try living in the real world for a little while first.

I appreciated the original post. Information is good, for if I ever need it. But the ensuing debate, what are you trying to accomplish? You are never ever ever going to stop somebody from doing something that they want to do (unless you are able to threaten their life or freedom forceably). So yeah, thanks for the info, but please stop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The "real world?" What a cop-out.

If you're going to make lifestyle choices, just do it. Don't make yourself a victim because of it or say that because someone is 19 he "can't understand" why you stuff a Big Mac down your face or whatever. You're not any closer to the "real world" for making decisions and then denying you had the free will to decide something else.

Tbat's not maturity; again, it's just a self-justifying cop-out.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
There's nothing even remotely pseudo-scientific about it. It's actually more than a little preposterous that you would even think it, much less suggest it. You need to read a little more. No, a lot more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply put, there is a reason you cant buy vegetable protein powder at GNC. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Mars357]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is an interesting statistic which I had to read a few times because it is so amazing. In a couple provinces in China, Sichuan and some other place like Guinshzio, with a populaiton of 220,000+, in a period of 3 years in the 70's there was not single case of coronary heart disease

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did this data come from? The Chinese government? I question this data because the Chinese are infamous for grossly understating everything from the number of people killed by a damn failure to the number of SARS cases... Not a very reliable source by any standards.

my .02

Mars

PS. To quote Homor Simpson, "If God didn't want us to eat animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat"

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Eat me. I'm a tasty and robust source of protein.

Grilled, roasted, baked, fried, smoked, or broiled, it doesn't matter. And I go good with beer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif you. So juicy and tasty, so many ways to prepare you..you are the perfect animal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget his other nice qualities. Slow of foot, docile, and easy to slaughter. These are all qualities I appreciate!

[/ QUOTE ]

How could I forget those! Im so glad God made cows out of meat..

[A Friggin Cow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Eat me. I'm a tasty and robust source of protein.

Grilled, roasted, baked, fried, smoked, or broiled, it doesn't matter. And I go good with beer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif you. So juicy and tasty, so many ways to prepare you..you are the perfect animal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget his other nice qualities. Slow of foot, docile, and easy to slaughter. These are all qualities I appreciate!

[/ QUOTE ]

How could I forget those! Im so glad God made cows out of meat..

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for all the love guys. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

MOOOOOO!

[Mars357]

[ QUOTE ]
If you followed that link I put up and read the 2nd review on amazon you would see that the author and many highly credible scientists support the ideas in the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you operating under the assumption that scientists begin a study with no bias and simply want to find out what happens within a controlled environment? I hope you are not that naive. Scientists typically have an outcome in mind at the beginning of a study and search high and low for any data that will support their bias while tossing any data that contradicts that bias. It is very simple to find "highly credible scientists" who share the same bias who will support their findings.

I love college freshmen.... out in the real world and so eager to save us from ourselves.

[Mars357]

[ QUOTE ]
oh btw masked man, no human was ever eaten by a dinosaur. you are becoming a part of your netflix.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could you possibly know this?

[Mars357]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As soon as I have some good ribs, I'll like them.

[/ QUOTE ]

When yopu get back down to Florida, let me know. I smoked some ribs Sunday. Home made rub from my Dad's BBQ restaurant recipe. A little Stubbs sauce. They were awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your dad owns a BBQ joint? Jake is becoming my favorite poster on OOT.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Your dad owns a BBQ joint? Jake is becoming my favorite poster on OOT.

[/ QUOTE ]

He used to... In Richmond Texas. It was called Firpo's. He retired and it's been closed for a few years now. I know I'm biased but it was the best I ever had.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
NEED something to eat, you think that a garden salad with some sprouts and an avocado is going to do the trick?


[/ QUOTE ]

why does everyone assume vegetarians eat salads every meal? I don't eat meat, and this wouldn't be a satisfying meal for me either. that still doesn't mean that you have to add meat or something, it's a choice you make. your body doesn't need meat, not after a long day at work or after a marathon or anything else.

--turnipmonster

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't eat meat

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, I knew there was something a little off about you.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't eat meat

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, I knew there was something a little off about you.

[/ QUOTE ]

a little? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[turnipmonster]

a little?

[turnipmonster]

I can't believe you beat me to that.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe you beat me to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

same timestamp. we'll call it a tie. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[KungFuSandwich]

[ QUOTE ]
pesticides? you can get organically grown vegetables. besides that is a small negetive against vegetables. give me tainted vegetables instead of a burger anyday.


[/ QUOTE ]
There is plenty of evidence that pesticides cause cancer.
#1 (http://www.health-report.co.uk/cancer-pesticides-245T-24D.html) #2 (http://www.mercola.com/2003/may/14/pesticides_prostate_cancer.htm) #3 (http://www.envirohealthpolicy.net/kidstest/Cancer%20Pages/DoPesticidesCauseCancerinChildren.htm)
But then the pesticide companies say that their studies show that they dont cause cancer. Here (http://www.pestfacts.org/cancerfaq.html)
The results of any experiment or study can be skewed because of bias. Obviously someone from the pesticide company is going to interpret the data differently. I think this is the reson many are skeptical of the accuracy of your heart diseas studys results. Id be willing to bet that the person who did this study was vegan or vegitarian. This does not mean his findings are autimatically bunk, but it does mean we should view them with some level of skepticism, in light of this obvious possible bias.

As another poster pointed out, the location of the study could also serve to bias its results. Could you explain how the researcher gathered his data? If he used villiage records or government records then there are some obvious problems.

The rate of heart disease in america cannot be soley attributed to meat. Smoking and second hand smoke, (http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4545)Diet, Exercise, Obeisity, and Genetics (http://www.heartdisease.org/whyimportant.html) Are all major factors contributing to heart disease.
You cannot continue to argue that heart disease has nothing to do with genetics. 80% of Heart Disease Patients have an inherited Lipoprotein abnormality. This alone could account for a vast difference in one groups heart disease rate.
[ QUOTE ]
but what is more likely, this, or all vegetables proteins are fine and this is idea of animal proteins being better and vegetables proteins needing to be mixed carefully is a myth?


[/ QUOTE ] Here you prove your lack of objectivity. Vegetable protein being mixed is not an elaborate hoax divised by Bambi Killers. Its the conclusion of unbiased scientific reasearch. The fact that you wont believe this but you will believe the heart disease correlation proves that you are not presenting this for health reasons.

When something fits into your world view you are quick to tout its value but when something comes along that even challenges it remotely, you are quick to dismiss it as a myth. Lets be honest, you dont care about our health, or your own for that matter. You just dont want us to eat bambi. If you were so health conscience you would already have studied how to lead a healthy vegitarian life, which you obviosly have not.

You chose to be a vegitarian for moral reasons, not health ones. Which do you think is more dangerous: a beer or a hamburger?
[ QUOTE ]
A vegan lifestyle is almost always an excersize in self-deulsion"

I don't agree. First of all you don't give any health arguments and that's what this is about healt, cheese and milk are bad for you too just like meat you don't adress that.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I feel sorry for all those babies that die each year because the bastard parents gave them milk.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/kungfusandwich/TCrazy.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/kungfusandwich/milk.jpg
Quit yo jibba jabba. Be somebody, or be sombody's fool.

[turnipmonster]

why are you replying to my post, yet quoting things from other people's posts? I never said anything you quoted.

[KungFuSandwich]

bah, sorry. All the quotes are from bruiser, I didnt realize I clicked the wrong reply button.

[theBruiser500]

"When something fits into your world view you are quick to tout its value but when something comes along that even challenges it remotely, you are quick to dismiss it as a myth."

yeah, ditto for everyone else too

[jakethebake]

My lunch today: Double Whopper with Cheese & Bacon - Hold the rabbit food. When I sit very still, I can actually feel my arteries clogging.

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]
My lunch today: Double Whopper with Cheese & Bacon - Hold the rabbit food. When I sit very still, I can actually feel my arteries clogging.

[/ QUOTE ]

Make sure you try the Bacon Chedder Ranch. Hootie was right, it's so [censored] good.

[Ray Zee]

know what -- that he is becoming part of his netflix. thats been obvious for a long time. just look at his mask.
he has been watching too many scifi movies where dinos eat people.
dinos were gone many millions of years before people came around.

then when man came, he has eaten every animal bigger than a rabbit to extinction or threatened status that isnt protected by law.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
then when man came, he has eaten every animal bigger than a rabbit to extinction or threatened status that isnt protected by law.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is something just so satisfying about being the baddest predator in the land. Makes the meat taste that much better.

[wacki]

I'm not a paleontologist but I wonder if Ray Zee is technically incorrect:

Alligators... the last dinosaur (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000FBF9/002-6807281-6009650?v=glance)

Gator Land (http://www.gatorland.com/fun/modern_dinos.html)

[Ray Zee]

certainly i am politically incorrect most of the time. technically only some. this time maybe if you streach it wacki alot. but you would be getting really picki-uni (zeno can come in and correct my use and spelling of that).

maybe you along with diablo are also a victim of netflix taking control of your life if you are resorting to these movies. if you like i will recommend something appropiate for you to watch. like attack of the killer tomatoes.

[Shajen]

The question is:

Is it worth the chance that you could live longer by not eating meat if it is something you truly enjoy?

I mean, I love meat. Really. Cows, pigs, and chickens are wonderful creatures full of very yummy things.

If my life were extended a couple of years by not eating meat, I wouldn't take it. Seriously. Why live longer if you are depriving yourself of the very things you enjoy?

Hey Bruiser, did these people in the study take vitamin supplements or anything? How did they get the necessary iron and other vital nutrients we typically get from animal flesh?

(Me goes back to read the original post again)

[turnipmonster]

basically, it's easy to get all the vitamins and protein you need from nonmeat sources. it's a myth that vegetarians should take vitamins. also a myth that you can't build muscle without eating meat, etc. I think it's great that people like eating meat, but it's silly to pretend it's necessary, because it's not.

--turnipmonster

[jakethebake]

What if Bruiser's right about this vegetarian thing?

I've heard another theory that every orgasm reduces your lifespan as well. Maybe a vegetarian-celibate lifestyle is the way to go. BRUISER MIGHT LIVE FOREVER!!!

[Shajen]

A couple people I know have gone the no meat route. Their doctors recommended they take vitamins to supplement their diet. I don't know, but I wonder if this is just a precaution against them not eating a large enough variety of vegetables to get the needed nutrients or what. I do know it is very possible to be in very bad health eating only vegetables...but it depends on which vegetables you are eating.

[OtisTheMarsupial]

[ QUOTE ]
This is my main concern. Anyone have any good cook books on how to eat vegetarian? Or atleast minimize the meat? I want to experiment with it for the sole purpose of finding out if I will gain more energy, mental power, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.
I've been a vegearian for my whole life and I'm about twice as old as the average OOT poster. I don't use cookbooks that often, but when I do, I use:

Moosewood Cookbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&camp=1789&tag=elainehasspok-20&creative=9325&path=tg/detail/-/0609802410/qid=1117652487/sr=8-5/ref=pd_csp_5?v=glance%26s=books%26n=507846)

Vegetarian Times (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&camp=1789&tag=elainehasspok-20&creative=9325&path=tg/detail/-/0764559591/qid=1117652487/sr=8-13/ref=pd_ka_6?v=glance%26s=books%26n=507846)

But there are tons more. Just search amazon.

You're right to search out cookbooks beause most people who try to limit their meat intake just switch to pasta, cereal and salads without taking the time to realize that once they close one door (meat), another one opens (vegetarian) - full of fantastic food they never imagined before.

If you're serious about it, there are also tons of online forums, IRL social groups, magazines... I bet you'll realize you know more vegetarians than you thought you did (right now veggies are about 10% of the total population). You'll be exposed to new restaurants, new people... it can be really exciting and fun.

Oh, I also have to plug my favorite program. So, you know how Poker Traker takes all your poker info and makes into useful data?

Well, Diet Power (http://www.dietpower.com) takes your nutritional info and figures out if you're getting enough nutrients or too much, it analyzes your calories... It's awesome. And you can totally modify it for your needs, like if you're diabetic and can't have sugar, or if you want to follow some special diet where your protein intake is 40% and carbs is 20% or whatever.
(Personally, I just use the standard recommended food pyramid thing and watch my calories, sodium and water.)

I get all my nutrients without even trying. And with DietPower I have the data to proove it.

[turnipmonster]

of course. also possible to be, as most of america is, in very bad health eating meat! doesn't mean you need to take vitamins!

[turnipmonster]

moosewood is a great cookbook. also, a lot of indian food is great vegetarian cuisine. I am not a big fan of tofu/seitan/wheat gluten cakes etc, so I really gravitate towards cooking indian food and stuff like that (also a lot of beans and rice).

go to your local farmer's market and buy fresh, in season vegetables and then figure out what to make, the key is starting with good, fresh ingredients (this includes spices!).

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
also, a lot of indian food is great vegetarian cuisine. I am not a big fan of tofu/seitan/wheat gluten cakes etc, so I really gravitate towards cooking indian food and stuff like that (also a lot of beans and rice).

[/ QUOTE ]

I though injuns ate buffalo and stuff like that?

[KungFuSandwich]

For what its worth: Vegan Bodybuilders (http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/workinprogress.htm)

[OtisTheMarsupial]

There's also Vegan Porn (http://www.veganporn.com/) and PETA's sexy vegetarians (http://www.peta.org/feat/sexyveg05/)

[KungFuSandwich]

[ QUOTE ]
There's also Vegan Porn (http://www.veganporn.com/) and PETA's sexy vegetarians (http://www.peta.org/feat/sexyveg05/)

[/ QUOTE ]Hmmmm, is that similar to this (http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2004/10/05/harris-naked/) ? What exactly are you trying to get me to click, you sneaky little wallaby.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
It found that as animal food consumption went up so did coronary heart diseases.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heart diseases are linked to a lot of things, which I am sure animal food consumption is a part of, but so is a lack of excercise, excessive smoking, and yes..lack of good sex.

[ QUOTE ]

All Chinese that have great health in China then move to the West and adopt our diet than start having health problems. And this goes for every every country's people that have no health problems when living in their country with their diet, they get the same problems we do when adopting our diet. There are so many points against what you're saying it is too frustrating typing it out here. Your points are ignorant, just read the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

American diet:

Breakfast: 4 fried eggs with tons of oil, 6 slices of bacon, snausages, waffles, and lots of syrup.

Lunch: Triple cheeseburger with mayo, more mayo, extra cheese, and what the heck let's make it's a quadruple cheeseburger. Slap on super size fries and a SUPA-DUPA large Coke.

Dinner: BBQ anything that has lot of meat on it!!! Add on a high carb beers, and some creamed up potato salad to fill the veggie requirements.

Just sick.

Americans (and some Canadians) live on a diet that is non-natural. The body is not meant to process excess amounts of hydrogenated oils, processed and refined goods, and other unnatural foods that have been the result of the "quick and delicious" meal.

The body then takes this excess amount of crap, stores it as fat and clogs up your arteries. Not to mention Americans are some of the laziest in the world when it comes to excercising and you have moved obesity to number 1 on voluntary reason for death, which surpasses smoking.

Lawrence

[wacki]

Interesting article.

Add a decade to your life (http://my.webmd.com/content/article/35/1728_84376.htm)

The whole article can be summed up into saying if you eat well and exercise even moderately you will add a decade to your life.


Reasonable article stating that plant based diets are much healthier.

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/64/72282.htm

It sucks though. All of these statistical studies seem to have huge holes in them. I'd like to see a side by side comparisson of two studies where all the factors are similar except the diet. Nobody seems to do be writing about these studies.

So I go to the ever faithfull pubmed and I hit gold:

Veggy diet on heart disease (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=612938 0&dopt=Citation)

59 healthy, omnivorous subjects aged 25-63 years were randomly allocated to a control group, which ate an omnivorous diet for 14 weeks, or to one of two experimental groups, whose members ate an omnivorous diet for the first 2 weeks and a lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet for one of two 6-week experimental periods. Mean systolic and diastolic blood pressures did not change in the control group but fell significantly in both experimental groups during the vegetarian diet and rose significantly in the experimental group which reverted to the omnivorous diet. Adjustment of the blood-pressure changes for age, obesity, heart rate, weight change, and blood pressure before dietary change indicated a diet-related fall of some 5-6 mm Hg systolic and 2-3 mm Hg diastolic. Although the nutrient(s) causing these blood-pressure changes are unknown, the effects were apparently not mediated by changes in sodium or potassium intake.

http://qjmed.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/92/9/531

It seems like the modern day american eats 60% meat based diet. If we bring this down to 20% we drastically reduce heart disease, cancer, etc. However, the adverse effect is that we will be farting more. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif




And Ray Zee, don't be silly, there are no killer tomatoes. However, there are some human eating creatures we do have to worry about.

This is why I started collecting guns (http://www.dawnofthedeadmovie.net/) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Click on view trailer on the main page, and then on the right hand side click on one of the Trailer Teaser links.

I'm with El Diablo Netflix rules!

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
know what -- that he is becoming part of his netflix. thats been obvious for a long time. just look at his mask.
he has been watching too many scifi movies where dinos eat people.
dinos were gone many millions of years before people came around.

then when man came, he has eaten every animal bigger than a rabbit to extinction or threatened status that isnt protected by law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you still bitter about him taking you to that horrible steakhouse?

Lawrence

[theBruiser500]

"It sucks though. All of these statistical studies seem to have huge holes in them. I'd like to see a side by side comparisson of two studies where all the factors are similar except the diet. Nobody seems to do be writing about these studies."

damn, browser crashed and deleted my last post. basically though the China Study goes over this point quickly and unsatisfactorily imo. the biggest thing that is hard to tell is excercise, vegeterians must get a lot more excercise then meateaters so all correlations confuse those two factors and don't know how much the benefit of better health is attributable excercise and how much to diet.

a questoin... heart problems are due to high choloestoral right, wouldn't excercise not affect cholestoral levels? the China Project which surveys china in the 70's... all people there shoudl be getting a good amount of excercise, and since china is so huge the diet varies from province to province. there was surpringly little in the book abut his big China Project, but he did say clearly that the China Project shows less animal food consumption in China related to less heart disease (so that elimatinos the confusing excercise problem of similar studes in the US)

wacki, please give your thoughts on this subject at some point if you look into it more.

[theBruiser500]

random interesting fact, chiense eat 30% more calories than we do

[theBruiser500]

Although the biology of the diet and disease relationship is infinitely complex and is easily misunderstood when interpreted in a reductionism manner, the main nutritional conclusion from this study is the finding that the greater the consumption of a variety of good quality plant-based foods, the lower the risk of those diseases which are commonly found in western countries (eg., cancers, cardiovascular diseases, diabetes). Based on these and other data, we hypothesize that 80-90% of all such diseases could be prevented before about age 90 years.

The optimum lifetime blood cholesterol concentration may be as low as 100-125 mg/dL (compared to an average concentration of about 210 mg/dL in the US.).

The same dietary factors which increase blood cholesterol concentrations among Americans (at the much higher ranges) also increase cholesterol at the lower concentrations of the Chinese; these include, for example, increased intakes of dietary fat and animal protein and decreased intakes of dietary fiber and legumes. Moreover, the lower the blood cholesterol, the lower the risk for various cancers; there is no evidence of a cholesterol threshold below which further decreases in disease would not occur. These two facts are quite remarkable, in that they suggest that almost any consumption of animal-based foods (higher in fat, lower in fiber) may increase blood cholesterol (among many other biochemical changes) from a very low level, this to be followed by a significant increase in the prevalence of the degenerative diseases (many other analyses of these same data for individual diet-disease relationships support this interpretation).

http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/reports/campbell_china1.html

[theBruiser500]

wacki one more fact that seems to seperates excercise and diet is... during WWII a lot of people had to stop eating meat because of the ware, heart problems dropped a lot in that period

[theBruiser500]

The China Project offers a rare opportunity to study disease in a precise manner because of the unique conditions that exist in rural China. Approximately 90% of the people in rural China live their entire lives in the vicinity of their birth.
Because of deeply held local traditions and the absence of viable food distribution, people consume diets composed primarily of locally produced foods.
In addition, there are dramatic differences in the prevalence of disease from region to region. Various cardiovascular disease rates vary by a factor of about 20-fold from one place to another, while certain cancer rates may vary by several hundredfold, and cancers are highly localized.
These factors make rural China a "living laboratory" for the study of the complex relationship between nutrition and other lifestyle factors and degenerative diseases.

http://free.freespeech.org/nhn/china.html

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
a questoin... heart problems are due to high choloestoral right, wouldn't excercise not affect cholestoral levels?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exercise does effect these levels, and so does genetics. However, if you look at the NCBI link I posted it is obvious that diet plays a significant role. I haven't found a laymans paper on the subject that is worth dogshit even at webmd.com. However, there are some really good articles on this stuff that can be found via google scholar and the NCBI search engine.

I'm still researching... will get back to this in a couple of days. Busy....

[jakethebake]

LOL...Bruiser, why do you keep replying to yourself?

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
vegeterians must get a lot more excercise then meateaters

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow Id love to see some support for that assertion.

[Blarg]

I knew a vegetarian who has sky high cholesterol, because cholesterol is not just taken in from outside, but made in the liver, excessively so, by some people. Others have problems with cleaning cholesterol out of their system, like people with hepatitis or other liver diseases, or metabolic imbalances.

Of course, we can always make things better or worse. But for some unlucky folks, even being a vegetarian for decades doesn't mean you don't have sky high cholesterol.

On another subject, here's something I came across today:

"...vegans whose diets contain large amounts of grains and only minimal amounts of beans could become deficient in lysine."

Lysine is an amino acid(protein).

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
moosewood is a great cookbook. also, a lot of indian food is great vegetarian cuisine. I am not a big fan of tofu/seitan/wheat gluten cakes etc, so I really gravitate towards cooking indian food and stuff like that (also a lot of beans and rice).

go to your local farmer's market and buy fresh, in season vegetables and then figure out what to make, the key is starting with good, fresh ingredients (this includes spices!).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I like Indian food too, very flavorful and spicey.

I like all foods, pretty much. I like that vegetarianism is less destructive of the environment and healthier for you, but I eat meat, too. I have many vegetarian meals, though -- I'm willing to enjoy different ways of eating and live with only partial benefits instead of all of them or none of them. It's not hard to find a comfortable place in the middle, though I do think that once you know more about vegetarian meals, they start to become less weird or unattractive, and you can start actually enjoying them for what they -- just good food.

I agree with Otis, also, that learning more about different foods is fun and cool. It's better than eating the same old thing every day; frankly, a culture's food is one of the more interesting things about most of them, to me. As in, I would possibly consider incorporating some of it into my own life. Knowledge that's delicious = the way to go.

Typical American food is mostly pretty bland, or if we try to flavor it up, it's with the same ole lame ole ketchup or something dull like that. It's very cool to see how other cultures use herbs and spices to strongly flavor their dishes and make even similar ones taste completely different.

I've got the Moosewood cookbook too; it's pretty cool.

And yeah, fresh ingredients are the key to good cuisine in general, vegetarian or not. Eating more vegetarian meals tends to just expose the average person to fresher meals, period, which is good all by itself for both health and flavor.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
A couple people I know have gone the no meat route. Their doctors recommended they take vitamins to supplement their diet. I don't know, but I wonder if this is just a precaution against them not eating a large enough variety of vegetables to get the needed nutrients or what. I do know it is very possible to be in very bad health eating only vegetables...but it depends on which vegetables you are eating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quantity has nothing to do with nutrition. The reason they might not get enough nutrients is because their colons are clogged from years of poisening themselves. This prevents the nutrients being absorbed and used. Clean the colon, and eating organic fruit, berries, nuts, and seeds will provide all the nutrients a person ever needs. In fact, they will be getting more nutrients than any meat eater ever could.

Protein is not a problem. The only reason you need to eat 100+g of protein from meat daily is because the body cannot make much use of animal protein, and trying to make use of it puts a lot of stress on organs like the liver and kidneys. Protein from plant sources is a much higher quality and less intake is needed because it all gets used by the body with much less work by the liver.

The same goes for minerals. Plant minerals are much better than the inorganic minerals found in meat. The inorganic minerals cannot get used by the cells of the body and instead just collect on the artery walls and turn the body to rock (which most people associate as an age thing).

If you don't want a diet consisting solely of fruit, berries etc, then do twice yearly cleanses of the body. It's amazing how much we take as signs of aging are really just signs of a toxic body due to clogged organs and dirty blood. Cleanses and/or the right diet will help your poker too. Curezone.com is a good source of cleanse info.

[TimM]

What a bunch of pseudo-scientific nonsense.

Almost all nutrients are absorbed before reaching the colon.

Meat is animal tissue. Humans are made of animal tissue. Why would the minerals and protein found in meat be less useful for humans than that found in plants?

Also, all minerals are inorganic, by definition.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Almost all nutrients are absorbed before reaching the colon.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. I wrote that out of habit. Change colon to intestines.

[ QUOTE ]
Meat is animal tissue. Humans are made of animal tissue. Why would the minerals and protein found in meat be less useful for humans than that found in plants?

[/ QUOTE ]

You appear to have all the answers on this subject, so you tell me.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, all minerals are inorganic, by definition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plants turn inorganic minerals in the soil/water into organic minerals.

[theBruiser500]

"Meat is animal tissue. Humans are made of animal tissue. Why would the minerals and protein found in meat be less useful for humans than that found in plants?"

JohnG, I'm curious how you answer this question? Also, what are the symptoms or consequences of not getting enough protein?

[OtisTheMarsupial]

Humans are omninvores - we may eat plants and/*or* animals.
We do not require meat in order to survive.
We do not vitamin suppliments if we choose not to eat meat.

Moreover, meat obtained these days poses significant risks
to our personal health and the health of our society
because it is:
- more fatty than non-framed meat
- more likely to be contaminated with feces
- more likely to be hormone-injected
- more likely to spread Mad Cow disease
- people tend to eat more of it than they should
- fish is likely contaminated with mercury
- factory farming methods are unsafe for workers
- factory farming methods are not economically sustainable
- factory farming methods increase global warming
- factory farming methods are cruel

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Meat is animal tissue. Humans are made of animal tissue. Why would the minerals and protein found in meat be less useful for humans than that found in plants?

[/ QUOTE ]

You appear to have all the answers on this subject, so you tell me.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was a rhetorical question.

[ QUOTE ]
Plants turn inorganic minerals in the soil/water into organic minerals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you think the animals we eat get their minerals? By eating rocks? Ok, so they get them mostly from eating plants, and eating other animals that ate plants. Did the animal digestive system evolve in such a way that it converts minerals from a useful form to a useless or harmful one? And if so, what difference would it make for us what we ate, since our (animal) bodies would do the same thing.

It looks like most of the "organic" vs. "inorganic" minerals claims are about cooking:

Does cooking render minerals "inorganic" or less assimilable? (http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-2h.shtml)

<font color="green">"It is appropriate to briefly comment on the topic of minerals in the human body. The human body includes both:

Organic minerals, e.g., hemoglobin contains iron; many amino acids and proteins contain sulfur; as well as

Inorganic minerals, e.g., salt--sodium chloride--in the blood, lymph, and many other body fluids.

Obviously, you would die without hemoglobin (organic iron) and salt (inorganic sodium, a metal/mineral). Additionally, the body can certainly use inorganic iron; see Fomon et al. [1995], Abrams et al. [1996], and Cook and Reddy [1995] for experimental verification.

Thus we note that the body needs and/or can use both organic and inorganic minerals, and the raw-foodist claim that the body cannot use any/all inorganic minerals is simply nonsense. Once again, the burden of proof applies to those who make this claim."</font>


Plant based diets may well be more healthy than animal based, but your reasoning sounds like it was made up by health food hippies trying to sell or promote something.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you think the animals we eat get their minerals? By eating rocks? Ok, so they get them mostly from eating plants, and eating other animals that ate plants.

[/ QUOTE ]

Animals that eat other animals eat the raw intestines, so they get the digested organic plant minerals. It is also fresh. We eat the dead cooked meat of the animal. Meat that will be full of fear chemicals and the animals toxins.

[ QUOTE ]
Did the animal digestive system evolve in such a way that it converts minerals from a useful form to a useless or harmful one?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would imagine the animal digests it, and then the liver uses the raw materials to covert into whatever chemicals it needs to keep the body healthy. So yes, the minerals from the plants are very different to what will be in the animal body that we eat. Not to mention the waste matter we will get from the meat and fat of the animal that it was storing and trying to eliminate.

[ QUOTE ]
And if so, what difference would it make for us, since our (animal) bodies would do the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Organic minerals from plants are easier for the liver to use, and can be used at a cellular level. Inorganic minerals are a lot more work for the liver, and are too big to get into the cells. So the blood eventually gives up trying and the metals collect on the artery walls.

Feeding the liver animal minerals is like trying to reverse engineer something. The liver needs the building blocks so it can make whatever it wants to make.

[ QUOTE ]
Plant based diets may well be more healthy than animal based, but your reasoning sounds like it was made up by health food hippies trying to sell or promote something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. As opposed to the drug companies, dentists, meat industry, government etc trying to promote or sell something. I wonder how powerful those 'health food hippies' are in comparison.

Of course, what I, or anyone, say does not matter, and debate on the subject is pointless. This is not something that has to be taken on faith. It is testable by the individual, and the persons health and how they feel is the feedback mechanism.

People are in charge of their own health. If a person has no mental, emotional, or physical problems and feel energetic, vibrant, and healthy, then they are obviously eating a diet that suits them. If people do not feel energetic, vibrant, and healthy, then there is obviously something wrong somewhere with either the intake of nutrients or the elimination of the toxins taken in daily. They have the choice to carry on doing as they have been doing up to that point if they are happy to continue being that way. Or they can choose to try a different way for a few months and see how they feel. It's their life, their choice. All I know is that the majority of people are walking around in a highly toxic state. Memory problems, mental fog, skin problems, body aches and pains, stiff joints, grey hair, bad teeth, body odour, and whatever, and that's before we get into the serious health issues after a longer period of time.

Even if people don't change their eating habits, I would at least suggest they use herbs and do twice yearly cleanses of their bodies. Mainly the intestines, kidneys, and liver. The cost is very low. They can judge for themselves whether it is worthwhile based on the results. The body makes itself healthy if allowed to do so.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, what are the symptoms or consequences of not getting enough protein?

[/ QUOTE ]

Death.

I also don't think we need as much as they say we need in our daily intake. We only need that much intake because much of what we take in will be unusable due to the source.

I think I answered your other question somewhere in the above post.

[The Stranger]

[ QUOTE ]
Memory problems, mental fog, skin problems, body aches and pains, stiff joints, grey hair, bad teeth, body odour, and whatever, and that's before we get into the serious health issues after a longer period of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

small price to pay

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Memory problems, mental fog, skin problems, body aches and pains, stiff joints, grey hair, bad teeth, body odour, and whatever, and that's before we get into the serious health issues after a longer period of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

small price to pay

[/ QUOTE ]

Cleanses would allow you to continue eating meat and crap, and probably lessen or eliminate the above things. It is then up to the individual whether they wish to eliminate the cause of the problems or continue regular cleansing to help deal with the symptoms.

Herbs are not needed if people follow a good diet. They are only needed to correct bad diet. Herbs basically help the liver and eliminating organs. Herbs for anything else do not really work unless the blood is already clean.

[The Stranger]

are you a dietician?

[theBruiser500]

good pos tjohn g

[TimM]

I could pick apart your whole post, but I will just take one example:

[ QUOTE ]
Organic minerals from plants are easier for the liver to use, and can be used at a cellular level. Inorganic minerals are a lot more work for the liver, and are too big to get into the cells. So the blood eventually gives up trying and the metals collect on the artery walls.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so wrong. Protein molecules containing minerals are much larger (thousands of atoms) than minerals in solution which are usually single atoms (ions).

Also, these protiens from animal sources are much more similar to their use in the human body than from plant sources. Take hemoglobin for example, which is a large protein containing 4 iron atoms:

<font color="green">"Iron. Adequate iron intake is necessary to prevent anemia. Because the richest dietary sources of iron are red meat and liver, vegetarians have a greater risk of iron deficiency than nonvegetarians. Although plant foods can contain iron, it’s a type of iron (“nonheme” iron) that is not absorbed as well as the “heme” iron contained in meat. In addition, the absorption of nonheme iron can be inhibited by certain substances in plant foods such as fiber, phytates (in cereal grains), and oxalates (in green leafy vegetables)."</font>

Link (http://www.hopkinsafter50.com/html/silos/nutrition/nw2004_01.php)

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Of course, what I, or anyone, say does not matter, and debate on the subject is pointless.

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Further debate is pointless because you are either making stuff up, or parroting stuff made up by others, with no basis in science or logic.

[JohnG]

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This is so wrong. Protein molecules containing minerals are much larger (thousands of atoms) than minerals in solution which are usually single atoms (ions).

Also, these protiens from animal sources are much more similar to their use in the human body than from plant sources.

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Don't tell me, the source was research paid for by the meat industry /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Take hemoglobin for example, which is a large protein containing 4 iron atoms:

<font color="green">"Iron. Adequate iron intake is necessary to prevent anemia. Because the richest dietary sources of iron are red meat and liver, vegetarians have a greater risk of iron deficiency than nonvegetarians. Although plant foods can contain iron, it’s a type of iron (“nonheme” iron) that is not absorbed as well as the “heme” iron contained in meat. In addition, the absorption of nonheme iron can be inhibited by certain substances in plant foods such as fiber, phytates (in cereal grains), and oxalates (in green leafy vegetables)."</font>

Link (http://www.hopkinsafter50.com/html/silos/nutrition/nw2004_01.php)

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Dude, you can be brainwashed by a system that wants unhealthy people, or you can try things yourself. If you're healthy and feel great then good for you. Continue whatever you've been doing.

In what way does this article talk about being deficient? Deficient as in causing health problems, or deficient as in there being less iron in the blood test compared to iron from red meat?

It is very possible for science to give misleading results. Inorganic minerals can get in the blood, so a blood test would show no deficiency, where there would be a deficiency at a cellular level.

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Further debate is pointless because you are either making stuff up, or parroting stuff made up by others, with no basis in science or logic.

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Excuse me, didn't you just parrot something from some web page? And in what way has anything I have said not been logical? Are you saying it's logical that dead animal meat pumped full of steroids is a good source of nutrition for a human?

This science you are on about. Is it independent science or science bought and paid for by the drug and meat industry?

Of course your view is the correct one. You couldn't have formed those views from disinformation. It's only 'health food hippies' that would lie and spread disinformation.

Further debate is pointless because it isn't a matter of debate. It isn't a matter of right and wrong. It's a matter of whether someone is healthy or not. It's a matter of how someone feels. It's a matter of personal choice. There's too much money and self interest involved to rely on what other people say. But if being right is important for you, then I concede. You are absolutely correct on this matter, and I am wrong.

[JohnG]

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are you a dietician?

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No. I just research, experiment, and make my own mind up based on the results.

Most dieticions are just brainwashed by the system. A system that is not interested in health or the truth.

[The Stranger]

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Are you saying it's logical that dead animal meat pumped full of steroids is a good source of nutrition for a human?


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Yes, because it is delicious. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously though, is anyone debating in this thread actually a dietician? If not, I'm going to stop opening it.

[The Stranger]

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are you a dietician?

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No. I just research, experiment, and make my own mind up based on the results.

Most dieticions are just brainwashed by the system.

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What kind of research and experiments?

[JohnG]

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are you a dietician?

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No. I just research, experiment, and make my own mind up based on the results.

Most dieticions are just brainwashed by the system.

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What kind of research and experiments?

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Research on food and herbs. Trying different eating habits and herbs to see if that research was truthful/credible. Your own experience is the only thing you can trust in this area. Too much self interest to trust any source of info at face value.

I've eaten a lot of meat in my life. I can't say it's ever helped me feel healthy or energetic.

And given your trust of dieticians, I guess they must be the healthiest and most energetic people in the world. Would that be your experience with dieticians?

[The Stranger]

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are you a dietician?

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No. I just research, experiment, and make my own mind up based on the results.

Most dieticions are just brainwashed by the system.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of research and experiments?

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Research on food and herbs. Trying different eating habits and herbs to see if that research was truthful/credible. Your own experience is the only thing you can trust in this area. Too much self interest to trust any source of info at face value.

I've eaten a lot of meat in my life. I can't say it's ever helped me feel healthy or energetic.

And given your trust of dieticians, I guess they must be the healthiest and most energetic people in the world. Would that be your experience with dieticians?

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I know one, and she fits that description.

[JohnG]

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....with no basis in science or logic.

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No logic?

Why is it illogical to think it's important to clean out the inside of our body? Why is it illogical to clean our intestines, kidneys, and liver? Why is it illogical to think it's healthier to have clean blood instead of dirty toxic blood?

[TimM]

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Excuse me, didn't you just parrot something from some web page?

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I gave a reference to support my position. It's what people do to prove they aren't making stuff up.

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This science you are on about. Is it independent science or science bought and paid for by the drug and meat industry?

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This is basic stuff you can learn in any high school biology class.

There may well be reasons why minerals attached to protein molecules (what you call organic minerals) are more easily absorbed by cells, but it sure as hell isn't because they are smaller.

And it's equally sure that the minerals you get by eating animal tissue will also be in the form that those minerals are used in animal cells - attached to organic protein molecules in most cases.

Our blood vessels are not lined with stuff like inorganic iron and zinc, nor is it contained in quantity in animal tissue. To have your blood so saturated with any mineral that it could not dissolve any more of it would kill you instantly.

The funny thing is, I am not disputing any claims about the health of plant or animal diets either way. But the claims you make to back it up are so ridiculous to anyone with a basic understanding of chemistry and biology that I don't see how anyone with half a brain can take you seriously. I am sorry to be so blunt but crackpot science like this peeves me.

[The Stranger]

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But the claims you make to back it up are so ridiculous to anyone with a basic understanding of chemistry and biology that I don't see how anyone with half a brain can take you seriously. I am sorry to be so blunt but crackpot science like this peeves me.

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He was talking about cleaning your blood. I was sort of listening until then. I think he has a medical book from about 1840.

[Blarg]

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Almost all nutrients are absorbed before reaching the colon.

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OK. I wrote that out of habit. Change colon to intestines.

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Meat is animal tissue. Humans are made of animal tissue. Why would the minerals and protein found in meat be less useful for humans than that found in plants?

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You appear to have all the answers on this subject, so you tell me.

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Also, all minerals are inorganic, by definition.

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Plants turn inorganic minerals in the soil/water into organic minerals.

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Zinc is zinc and selenium is selenium.

Organic vs. non-organic is a non-issue.

[Blarg]

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are you a dietician?

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No. I just research, experiment, and make my own mind up based on the results.

Most dieticions are just brainwashed by the system. A system that is not interested in health or the truth.

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Honestly, I'm convinced a properly managed vegetarian diet is far healthier, but your making unsupportable claims and then when getting called on it reflexively reacting by imagining conspiracies by the meat industry or whatever is pretty over the top. I mean, sorry, but your kind of raving is what gives other vegetarians a bad name.

If you want to be a vegetarian, there's plenty of science enough to support your viewpoint without indulging in conspiracy theories on the one hand or make-believe science on the other.

I can't imagine a more effective way to turn people off to the benefits of a vegetarian/more vegetarian lifestyle than by taking it away from the people who enjoy it and are rational and turning it into a relgious experience or belief system of some sort, filled with phony science.

To me, this is very much like scaring people away from Christianity by raving about "creation science."

I'm sorry if this sounded more disrespectful of you than I wish it did, because my desire wasn't really to attack you; I just think that despite being basically well-meaning (except for that very silly descent into anti-meat-industry paranoia)you are spectacularly and pointedly wrong, and actually detract from any argument that could be made for the benefits of eating better.

[JohnG]

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He was talking about cleaning your blood. I was sort of listening until then. I think he has a medical book from about 1840.

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The liver cleans the blood.

If the liver and kidneys are clogged, then they are unable to remove waste from the system as efficiently.

[JohnG]

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Excuse me, didn't you just parrot something from some web page?

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I gave a reference to support my position.

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You gave a link to some website. You can use a website to support any position, on anything, ever.

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This science you are on about. Is it independent science or science bought and paid for by the drug and meat industry?

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This is basic stuff you can learn in any high school biology class.

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Ah, so it's the bought and paid for variety.

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The funny thing is, I am not disputing any claims about the health of plant or animal diets either way. But the claims you make to back it up are so ridiculous to anyone with a basic understanding of chemistry and biology that I don't see how anyone with half a brain can take you seriously.

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I have a basic understanding of chemistry and biology, but I guess I have less than half a brain.

Dude, I already said you are right and I am wrong. Look a few posts up. It's there. Pat yourself on the back.

[TimM]

Blarg said it best. I don't need to waste any more time on this.