Sanity check trips hand

[adanthar]

Level 1, 109 Party. Nothing special from anyone, 9 handed. 5 limpers to me with J8o in the BB, so I check.

The flop is A88, 2 hearts. Check, check, check, MP minbets, call, button raises to 85, I call, fold, fold, fold, MP raises to 400, fold, button pushes for 900, I...think long and hard, puke and fold.

edit: corrected below - 2 more calls

[Eric Draven]

The way it was played it's really hard to say "There's no way they have me beat!" And with a stand raise, re-raise, AND push your hand looks a lot worse. It smells like Aces, or possibly even A8s... But it could just be the case 8 with a bad kick vs. AK or something...

I honestly can't tell what I'd do here... It's close either way...

Any reads?

[splashpot]

I've never played a 109. In a 11 or 22, this is an easy call for me. I imagine 109s play differently. Sure is difficult to put someone on a better 8 than you.

[BradleyT]

Why the [censored] would aces push on this flop?

[adanthar]

I just realized I was getting two hands mixed up.

The correct flop action was: check, check, check, MP minbets, call, button raises to 85, I call, CALL, CALL, fold, raise, fold, push...

Yeah, that was weird.

[durron597]

I probably fold and kick myself for not reraising the Button.

At some point you have to put a bet in here to have any idea whether you have the best hand... and after a bet and a raise I doubt you lose the button. And if you were willing to get allin 3 way I doubt you would have folded - a decision I agree with. I think if you repop it to 250 and the MP pushes over you and the Button calls, you can fold with a clear conscience.

[LeVoodoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Why the [censored] would aces push on this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

After a limp no less. It's really hard to put anybody on Aces full.

[BradleyT]

If the hand was posted from MP's perspective and he had say AQ, everyone on here would advocate him pushing.

I don't get what exactly you're afraid of here.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why the [censored] would aces push on this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

After a limp no less. It's really hard to put anybody on Aces full.

[/ QUOTE ]

The revision changes things a bit. The first limper could very well have aces. The fact that you have a raising war going on AND two EP limpers who called a bet/raise cold already waiting behind you makes this a tough spot.

-Phoenix

[johnnybeef]

not sure about the 109s as ive only played in one, but at the 33s and below, there are more than enough monkeys to make folding here a very big mistake.

[Phoenix1010]

At a 109, I would think that you have to account for everyone still around having some kind of a hand. There are only so many strong aces and flush draws possible when you've got this many people in, it becomes likely that someone else has an 8 at least. I think the problem with folding is that you have a jack kicker. 89 and 78 are faaar more likely from limpers than K8 and Q8, and they're likely to play any 8 with equal strength because of all the callers and the possible flush draw. AA is unlikely, both because it would be strange for the bettors and raisers to play it so fast (or limp in MP/LP), so you'll only see it from the EP players, and because with all the action it's likely that more than one person has an ace. I don't think this is a foldable situation.

-Phoenix

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I just realized I was getting two hands mixed up.

The correct flop action was: check, check, check, MP minbets, call, button raises to 85, I call, CALL, CALL, fold, raise, fold, push...

Yeah, that was weird.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the final "pusher" is the button? (who originally raised to 85? If that's so, he's the least of my worries. But that's a lot of [censored] calls. It's really too bad you had to act first after the button. Anyway, I would bet that the two callers after you prolly fold (unless they are flush draw chasers). So now we're to MP. If I'm reading your comments correctly, he reraised button. I think there's a very good chance he has an 8. But his 8 is more likely 78 or 89. I would think you've got the better hand.

Did MP call the push? What were the hands?

[adanthar]

Lots of folds, MP thinks forever, calls with AQ (!?!) and loses to button's AK (!?!)

I've very rarely been that wrong on a fold but couldn't put *everybody* on a hand I beat unless they were splitting a million flush outs. Oh well.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Lots of folds, MP thinks forever, calls with AQ (!?!) and loses to button's AK (!?!)

I've very rarely been that wrong on a fold but couldn't put *everybody* on a hand I beat unless they were splitting a million flush outs. Oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why didn't you reraise the button?

[adanthar]

<font color="red"> Oh, hey, another correction: MP1 minbet, *MP2* made it 400. </font>

Because when I reraise the button, everyone folds (except maybe the button and that's a close one). A call doesn't mean as much to a fish because 'he has an ace, he calls'.

If the flop was something like Q88, I'd just have bet out.

Looking at the hand again, I'm amazed. Memorial Day? Blah, if I remembered it was a holiday I'd have called, lol.

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
At a 109, I would think that you have to account for everyone still around having some kind of a hand. There are only so many strong aces and flush draws possible when you've got this many people in, it becomes likely that someone else has an 8 at least. I think the problem with folding is that you have a jack kicker. 89 and 78 are faaar more likely from limpers than K8 and Q8, and they're likely to play any 8 with equal strength because of all the callers and the possible flush draw. AA is unlikely, both because it would be strange for the bettors and raisers to play it so fast (or limp in MP/LP), so you'll only see it from the EP players, and because with all the action it's likely that more than one person has an ace. I don't think this is a foldable situation.

-Phoenix

[/ QUOTE ]

great read

[Jason Strasser]

Adanthar.

This hand becomes so easy if you lead the flop. I dont mess around much in unraised pots so even if you only lead with good hands Shania wont be mad because only in very high end SNGs do you see the same opponents a lot who will not pay you off. The problem with checking is facing a bet and a raise.... Its the same problem with limp raising with AA... You are usually put in a very awkward spot when there is a bet and a raise to you. Basically leading allows you to somewhat conceal the value of your hand while also forcing your opponents to define theirs.

-Jason

[johnnybeef]

I am a pretty big fan of trapping early on in a sng...but i think in a multiway pot like we have here, you need to define your hand a little bit.

[ilya]

I think you should check-raise the flop both to protect and to define your hand. Make it 275 or so.
Given the action I think folding is fine.