AJs -- Raise flop or Call?

[aK13]

Golden Tiger (10 handed 1/2)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
4 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, <font color="red"> Hero raises </font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

(10 SB) Flop: T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="red"> MP3 bets </font> , Hero...?

[istewart]

I'd raise.

[ClaytonN]

Raise. AJ of diamonds on a flop like this has huge equity, so exploit that and raise. Pump that huge draw.

[blitt]

I absolutely hate slowplaying.

[istewart]

Well, you don't really have a hand to "slowplay" here, per se.

[blitt]

True enough

[SteveM]

A raise here might also be useful camoflague if we do eventually hit the flush.

[Aaron W.]

It's definitely a raise, but it's not about buying outs. You've built yourself a big pot and you want to maximize your chances of winning it. Driving out a player or two may save you if you hit your pair on the turn, but someone finds a random two pair or runner-runner straight on the river. But if they call two bets, you're still happy because you have a huge equity edge.

If you didn't raise preflop (shame on you), calling would be better.

[scotty34]

Raise it. I wouldn't be too worried about driving players out, as the pot is already getting pretty big, and a lot of players will probably call two anyways. You may get yourself a free card by raising (should you choose to take it) and yes, it does have the potential to clean up some outs.

[afk]

This is a pretty standard raise.

[Disconnected]

I voted raise. Pot's already big enough to do whatever you can to increase the chance you win it.

[irishpint]

easy raise for all the reasons mentioned, however its more than just buying outs like you said in the poll.

[Jakesta]

Raise. If you didn't have two overcards here I would say call, but you do, so raise it up.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a pretty standard raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, thats what I figured. I've been in a pretty significant downswing lately (somewhere around 100BB) which is making me second guess myself on a lot of these types of basic situations.

Now say we have A9s (ignoring whether or not we should raise this preflop), are we calling or buying our A outs?

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a pretty standard raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, thats what I figured. I've been in a pretty significant downswing lately (somewhere around 100BB) which is making me second guess myself on a lot of these types of basic situations.

Now say we have A9s (ignoring whether or not we should raise this preflop), are we calling or buying our A outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I would still raise with A9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif here. For one, your nine outs may be good because the bettor might not be betting a ten, but I'm really big on free card raises - and they work a lot. With A9s I'd probably raise and take a free card UI.

[USDaniels]

I said raise in the poll but that is with the comfort of time. In real time I might call instinctively to see what comes next cheaply.

"Raise agression factor, you must."

[BlackRain]

I voted raise also for the reasons already given.

9 people have voted to just call. Anyone of those 9 people going to explain?

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
I voted raise also for the reasons already given.

9 people have voted to just call. Anyone of those 9 people going to explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm wondering if lurkers can vote in these polls. Either way, to anyone who voted to call, I think you really need to re-read SSH.

[therockofgibraltar]

I replied call so guess I must re-read SSH!

My thinking was something like, I don't want to drive people out.
IF SB, BB or even MP2 bet, MP3 call, I would definitely raise! And if for example BB bets, MP2 calls and MP3 then raises, I would reraise.

So I usually are aggressive with nut flush draw. Heck, with 2 opponents I have pot equity to raise and cap the flop.

But I don't do it now because I don't want to drive people out. Clearly, after reading your posts, this is incorrect action and I should raise to buy outs!

[Kumubou]

[ QUOTE ]
I replied call so guess I must re-read SSH!

My thinking was something like, I don't want to drive people out.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's really an option-select raise here. If people are driven out, great! The pot is starting to get bloated, and you do want to maximize your chances of winning this growing pot. If people call two cold, that works too -- you are building a massive pot with you having the better of it. Whatever happens after this raise is good for you (except the next better making it three to go, heh).

-K

[therockofgibraltar]

Ok, thanks! DIdn't notice that the pot has grown already quite a bit.

So raising is good no matter what happens (they fold or call) /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[albedoa]

So if the pot were still kind of small, would you call and allow people to stay in?

[therockofgibraltar]

I think that is correct. When the pot is big, you want to play aggressively and maximize your chances to win it.

When the pot is small, you try to build it (when you have a strong hand like this)

[albedoa]

This is a really good thread for those of us who need to realize we should read SSH again this summer. I think I've been playing this hand incorrectly.

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
So if the pot were still kind of small, would you call and allow people to stay in?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I would still raise.

One thing that is really common is that people get too zoned in on the flush draw alone and completely forget that we have overcard outs that may also win the pot a fair amount of the time. People also get hell bent on trying to get the most value possible on flush draws they can. With the additional overcard outs your chance of making a hand by the river (and winning) increases - so even if you raise and get one cold caller plus the bettor you still get value on the raise. Raising can buy you ace or jack outs (which increases your chances of winning when you hit) and don't forget it can get you a free card (which is huge!).

[davelin]

Raise because our equity is ginormous and the pot is getting big.

[tangential]

blind post..

This is a prime example where you would like knock out people behind
you to protect your two overcards. You are giving everyone 7.5:1 to call.
This should eliminate all inside straight draws and overcards, maybe a small
pair will fold.

Hope you won.

[tkmoore]

Great flop for you, I raise here. MP3 did not raise PF, so he either figures this flop has missed everyone, he has hit a set, or is on a draw. Being passive is a mistake with this many in the pot.

[AmarilloJim1]

I'd raise to improve my chances of winning and to buy a possible free card.

[KingOtter]

Eee gad, what's happened to me... I said call.

I looked at the hand, and I knew I *could* raise, and that if it came back to me for 2 bets I'd 3-bet it probably (but at that point I wouldn't be looking for overcard outs)... but said call instead, looking for overcalls and building the pot.

Bah. I just found my SSH book over the weekend and definitely need some refresher.

KO

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So if the pot were still kind of small, would you call and allow people to stay in?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I would still raise.

One thing that is really common is that people get too zoned in on the flush draw alone and completely forget that we have overcard outs that may also win the pot a fair amount of the time. People also get hell bent on trying to get the most value possible on flush draws they can. With the additional overcard outs your chance of making a hand by the river (and winning) increases - so even if you raise and get one cold caller plus the bettor you still get value on the raise. Raising can buy you ace or jack outs (which increases your chances of winning when you hit) and don't forget it can get you a free card (which is huge!).

[/ QUOTE ]

The overcard outs are probably not tainted in this spot. You are only dominated by AK and AQ. The times that overcards are raised to "buy outs" is when you currently have the best hand and you're buying yourself "safe undercard outs" (AK vs Q9 vs 56 -- driving out Q9 gives you 6 more outs).

With 5 players in the pot, I think it's reasonably likely that somebody has a pair of something (PP or paired with the board). Therefore, you would really like to put the spurs to those junk hands like Q4 to make them release.

[Nick Royale]

I'm not sure what hand you're reffering to (with/without pfr) but I agree with your first post, this is a raise if you raise preflop but a call if you don't.

[ QUOTE ]
The overcard outs are probably not tainted in this spot. You are only dominated by AK and AQ. The times that overcards are raised to "buy outs" is when you currently have the best hand and you're buying yourself "safe undercard outs" (AK vs Q9 vs 56 -- driving out Q9 gives you 6 more outs).


[/ QUOTE ]
This is not entirely true though. We are reverse dominated by hands like J7/A4s and other possible limping hands. Our overcard outs will be tainted a fair ammount of the time and by raising we will be able to buy overcard out sometimes.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what hand you're reffering to (with/without pfr) but I agree with your first post, this is a raise if you raise preflop but a call if you don't.

[ QUOTE ]
The overcard outs are probably not tainted in this spot. You are only dominated by AK and AQ. The times that overcards are raised to "buy outs" is when you currently have the best hand and you're buying yourself "safe undercard outs" (AK vs Q9 vs 56 -- driving out Q9 gives you 6 more outs).


[/ QUOTE ]
This is not entirely true though. We are reverse dominated by hands like J7/A4s and other possible limping hands. Our overcard outs will be tainted a fair ammount of the time and by raising we will be able to buy overcard out sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you will sometimes buy overcard outs like this. But to say that it will a "fair" amount of the time I think is an overstatement. If you're playing in a game where they would limp J7/A4s, then you would also expect them to limp hands like 87/97/T7/Q7/K7. So there are lots of hands out there where you are not reverse dominated.

Buying overcard outs (in this sense) happens at the same frequency as knocking out smaller pairs. Sometimes it happens, but I don't really count on it. And this gets more true as the pot is bigger.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you will sometimes buy overcard outs like this. But to say that it will a "fair" amount of the time I think is an overstatement.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not really sure how often "a fair ammount of the time" is, but taken in relation to the times; 4 players miss the flop, you get bet into, you raise and your overcards are the best hand and buy undercard outs, I don't think the times you're reverse dominated are negligible.

[ QUOTE ]
Buying overcard outs (in this sense) happens at the same frequency as knocking out smaller pairs. Sometimes it happens, but I don't really count on it. And this gets more true as the pot is bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]
Facing a pair of 4's or 7's with 2 cold it will be hard for them to call. Sure, most players isn't good, but I think a pair of 4's gets folded easily more than 50% of the time in this spot.

EDIT:
Saying: "The overcard outs are probably not tainted in this spot."
Because: "You are only dominated by AK and AQ."
is not correct anyways...

Don't get me wrong, I think buying undercard outs is the bigger part of the outs we buy...

[DMBFan23]

I voted raise, but my reasoning was different than listed. I want to raise to let the goons call two cold and basically print me money. if they fold that's ok too, but dont worry they probably wont

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what hand you're reffering to (with/without pfr) but I agree with your first post, this is a raise if you raise preflop but a call if you don't.

[ QUOTE ]
The overcard outs are probably not tainted in this spot. You are only dominated by AK and AQ. The times that overcards are raised to "buy outs" is when you currently have the best hand and you're buying yourself "safe undercard outs" (AK vs Q9 vs 56 -- driving out Q9 gives you 6 more outs).


[/ QUOTE ]
This is not entirely true though. We are reverse dominated by hands like J7/A4s and other possible limping hands. Our overcard outs will be tainted a fair ammount of the time and by raising we will be able to buy overcard out sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was referring to a situation where we have A9s instead of AJs preflop. I don't think A9s is worth a raise after 2 limpers.

I also must chime in that I agree that the term "buying outs" usually means knocking out players who have us reverse dominated. Hands like AQ and AK will fold to our raise, but we're hoping that hands like A7 also fold so that in case an ace falls on the turn or the river, we win the pot when we normally wouldn't.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
I was referring to a situation where we have A9s instead of AJs preflop. I don't think A9s is worth a raise after 2 limpers (unless the blinds will fold).


[/ QUOTE ]
That's a standard raise for me (I would like the blinds to fold, but I raise even if they're loose). I've not read any discussion about that in this thread, but I'm sure raising A9s from CO/Button is the way to play it.

[ QUOTE ]
I also must chime in that I agree that the term "buying outs" usually means knocking out players who have us reverse dominated. Hands like AQ and AK will fold to our raise, but we're hoping that hands like A7 also fold so that in case an ace falls on the turn or the river, we win the pot when we normally wouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]
Aron has a point by saying we're buying undercard outs, but I don't think we can neglect the possibility of being reverse dominated.