Roy West's book: He doesn't like two small pairs versus an overpair

[King Yao]

In "7-Card Stud 42 Lessons" by Roy West, Course Lesson 20, he writes how two small pairs is crap against a bigger two pair. However, he also goes on to write how two small pairs is not good against one big pair on 4th street. On page 95 of the first Cardoza edition, he writes:

"How about your two pair against your opponent's one pair, which is higher than either of your pair? At first glance it looks good. But at second glance, you don't like it. With three cards to come, your opponent can pair any one of his cards or make trips of his pair, and your two pair will go down the tubes."

Then it is highlighted on p.96:

"You should be getting a clear picture that two small pair is something of a death hand."

and then he continues with:

"Such a hand is so easily outdrawn that it's a long-range money loser."

I do think he's talking about two small pair overall (against one big pair and against a bigger two pair), but he makes it read like you should dump two small pair anytime you know someone has a big pair because it isn't worth playing.

Now, I completely agree with him about two small pair versus two bigger pair...however, to say that you don't like two small pair versus on bigger pair on 4th is really stretching it. Some simple math shows that the player with the big pair is a small favorite to get two pair or better (I did it as 1 - 40/48 x 36/47 x 32/46) at 55.6%, however, that doesn't count the possibility you will hit a full house and still win the pot. Twodimes.net has this matchup around 55% for the two small pair. Even if the two small pair is a slight dog, it would still be playable on 4th given the pot up to that point.

Am I missing something? Or is Roy West wrong when he says "you don't like it (two pair versus one big pair)"? He never explicitly says to fold it, but he makes it implicit.

In an earlier page in that chapter (p.93), his advice is to fold if "the high board is to your left and bets. Four players call by the time the action gets back to you. Do you raise? Well, "depends." What's your objective? Protection. You probably won't be able to accomplish that objective. With five other players having already put in a bet, you probably won't be able to drop enough of them. Fold."

I agree that a raise doesn't make much sense...but why fold? There are at least 10 small bets in the pot, and you still have 4 outs to hit a full house...and a chance (albeit not a good chance) to win unimproved too. Seems to me you've got pot odds to see if you hit a boat on fifth.

I was really liking this book, and found much of it interesting and enlightening. Until I got to this chapter.

[AdamK]

I've never read this book, and from comments other people have made i have never had the urge to rush out and buy it.
Having said that.. i don't like two small pair either.

I think it was Mark Twain (?) who once said that if you know how to play two pair then you know how to play poker.
( I'm paraphrasing - correct me if i am wrong anyone.)

I think if you are a beginner, then dumping 2 small pair early is good advice - you're never really sure where you stand & the worst thing to do is keep paying-off in this situation.

Heads-up is a different matter.. if you always fold not only are you leaving money on the table, you are asking to get 'messed around with'.

I agree with Mark Twain.. not having read Roy West (& i havent much time to go into details), but even if the bigger pair is behind, it will often be in the driving seat in this situation.

[King Yao]

so you are saying:
1. fold with two small pair on fourth after 5 players have called and you can close the action? what if you aren't a beginner - what would YOU do in this spot?
2. keep playing with two small pair if heads-up? you kinda made the argument for both sides (calling and folding), so it wasn't clear.

Just want to make sure exactly what your suggestion is, it wasn't entirely clear to me based on your post.

[SittingBull]

Remember,this book is intented for BEGINNERS who are attempting to learn the game. It is a GUIDE LINE that is MOSTLY applicable for LOW AND LOW MED. LIMIT players.
Because his book is intended for BEGINNERS,his suggestions are MORE CONSERVATIVE. U need to MODIFY UR play when appropriate.
I do agree with U about UR idea on playing two small PRS.
But we are NOT as conservative as Roy. BTW,it's about 3 to 1 against filling by the river if UR 2 PRS are completely live.
SittingBull

[AdamK]

OK King Yao

You are correct, i made the argument for both sides.. my post wasn't clear in suggesting what to do either way.

In a scenario such as this, i do not think there is a generic 'correct' way to play such hands.

If you are heads-up, then things become very player dependent.

If it's multi-way, then you have dead cards, players remaining in the hand, position, other players' boards, pot-odds, etc to consider.

If my post wasn't clear, then this may be due to the nature of the scenario ( + also i may be inarticulate!)
I have not read the Roy West book, but i doubt that you could tell me how to play 2 small pair in a few pages.

As for the examples you give:
1. easy call.
2. sometimes you are in a tough spot how to play it.
(Depends on a lot of parameters.)
Sorry if i seem vague, but it is a good question you ask &
you will not find a simple solution.

[King Yao]

Thanks for the response Adam.

[AdamK]

np
As an afterthought.. you can save yourself a lot of headache by dumping small pairs on 3rd st.
Im sure you know this, but i think it's worth pointing out.. it's the worst mistake i see players making & it's what i look for when scouting out a game to play in nowadays.
gl

[ElToasto]

To solve the problem that is two small pair, I think you should reevaluate your starting hand requirments. I suggest dumping the hands on 3rd st that would get you in said situation. A hand such as (22)8 or (57)5 should be folded in a full ring game, especially if your a beginner.When you have a read on your table, only then can you widen your range of starting hands. Remember, your kicker to your small pair should be higher than the highest door card on board. Using these guidelines should help. Chip Reese's chapter in SS1 is where I learned this. It helped me a ton.

[Roland]

Adam and ElToasto are right, of course: Just throw those hands away and you won’t be in that situation very often.
Nevertheless, I think there are two good reasons to take a closer look at this situation:

• Some of your opponents play these hands all the time; so while you won’t be playing a hand like 5252 very often, you will be playing against it all the time.
• It is sometimes correct to play a small or medium pair (and in that case you might have to deal with playing to small pairs).
There’s an example in 7CSFAP that has you playing 5h5d6d against a pair of aces if one ace and one of the aces kicker are dead; and they don’t tell you to throw this hand away on 4th if you pair your door /images/graemlins/wink.gif*. So obviously you have to consider how live your cards are and how live your opponents cards are.
And there’s a lot more to think about: extra outs; whether your opponent might be stealing; how well he plays; positional advantage; the size of the pot; etc.

*This just struck me: Some opponents will frequently continue when you pair your door and will also play very aggressively. Although this is nice if you have trips, I think this may be a spot were you would want to throw away your two small pairs. Here’s an example:
Suppose you are the bring-in with 5h5d6d. Everybody folds except for the guy to your right, who raises with a king up. All your cards are live, so you call and pair your door on 4th. Your opponent catches a live ace. You bet the maximum since he probably was stealing anyway, but he calls. Now what do you do on 5th? Lets say this player is fully capable of raising you as a bluff with only one higher pair or even nothing. And he is going to have position on you for the entire hand (unless he catches a pair on board, but then you anyway have to fold). On the other hand, the pot is already pretty large (3.5 big bets), so folding is pretty terrible…
So maybe you should check-fold on 4th?! Or fold on 3rd?
Oh well, I don’t know what I was trying to say, really. Except that position is important, and your opponent makes a difference. Any thoughts?

[King Yao]

Question on Third Street:

You bring it in with (52)2. The player to your left complets with a K. 4 players call. Do you call or fold?

[AdamK]

Size of the antes & bring-in are important here.

If the deuces are live & i expect to get paid if i pair my doorcard, then i call.
If one of 2s are dead, i don't like it, but will call unless it is a game with very small antes & bring-in.
With both the 2s dead i fold.
(Having a 2 flush with live-cards also helps.)

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet fifth on re-evaluate on sixth.

[Andy B]

Calling with split Deuces and a Deuce gone, even if you're half-in, is pretty bad. It's 41:1 against you hitting your set on fourth, and nothing else is going to make you like your hand that much.

[Andy B]

Let me state for the record that although Roy West is responsible for the best poker advice ever when evaluated on a per-word basis ("play happy or don't play"*), I'm not a fan of his book.

Oh, you guys knew that already?

In a multi-way pot, two small pair suck, especially when your opponents have bigger pairs than yours. With more than one opponent, it is quite likely that someone will draw out on you, and you will have a hard time improving yourself. In the scenario you describe towards the end of your post, you should definitely call with your two pair against five opponents and re-evaluate on fifth street.

When you're heads-up, though, you're winning. The other guy will fail to improve more often than not. If his bigger pair is split, you won't always know when he hits his kicker, but you'll know when he hits one of his up-cards. If his pair is in the hole, you'll know when he makes two pair, but won't know if he hits a set. And while you're a big dog to improve, you will sometimes, and since so many people get married to big pairs, you stand to get paid off. Also, there will be at least a little money to fight over. I think that automatically folding two small pair against a presumed big pair is a mistake.

And for AdamK, I think that the Clemens quote you're looking for is to the effect that learning to play two pair is as valuable as a college education--and just as expensive.


* Honorable mention to Mike Caro for advice on hold'em:

"Play big cards."

and stud:

"Play live cards."

[Andy B]

If the bring-in is a half-bet and my Deuces are live, I call. Otherwise, I fold.

[greenage]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it was Mark Twain (?) who once said that if you know how to play two pair then you know how to play poker.
( I'm paraphrasing - correct me if i am wrong anyone.)

[/ QUOTE ]

The power of Google. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The whole situation reminds me of the famous Mark Twain poker quote: “Learning how to play two pair is as expensive as a college education — and worth just about as much.”

from a CardPlayer article by Bob Ciaffone (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=14656&m_id=65559)

[AdamK]

Thanks Andy & greenage..
was in a rush when i posted, else i would have googled it myself. Lame excuse i know.

[somapopper]

[ QUOTE ]
Question on Third Street:

You bring it in with (52)2. The player to your left complets with a K. 4 players call. Do you call or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

fold.

call with (22)5 and live cards, and I ain't ditching my cards on 4th if I have (22)55 even if they aren't fully live.