Newbie: Bet the flop? Bet the turn?

[two cards]

PokerRoom 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) handconverter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

Were my flop and turn plays OK, or did I get them backwards? Is this one of those protect your hand situations?

[MrWookie47]

If you were checking the flop with the intention of calling an EP bet or raising a LP bet, that's an ok play, but I'd probably just bet out. Betting the turn is good, and checking that river is killing kittens.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

I don't like betting out on the flop. Everybody's not going to fold here. I'd probably go for a check raise myself.

[cold_cash]

I dont mind checking the flop if you're planning to check-raise a bet from the right spot. I'd probably just bet out though, because your kicker isn't awful.

Turn is good.

Bet the river.

[Bodhi]

Bet the flop, bet the turn, bet the river. Why are you playing so passively?

[Bodhi]

but no one raised preflop. Who are you counting on to bet the flop so that we can check raise? How do we know it'll be someone in late position that will bet?

Lastly, just because no one will fold doesn't mean they ought not to fold. We're making money when we bet and they call incorrectly.

[Jakesta]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like betting out on the flop. Everybody's not going to fold here. I'd probably go for a check raise myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just flat out bad advice. You don't know that someone is going to bet it, and you don't want to give a gutshot or middle pair a free look at the turn.

[marchron]

<font color="red">WARNING</font>: 2+2 newbie here. If I'm wrong, be gentle; if I'm right, it was an accident, I swear.

Bet the flop. Bet the turn.

Can he raise the river for value, or is his kicker/hand in general not strong enough?

[Jakesta]

I wouldn't raise the river here, because I would have BET the river. Are you asking if he should check-raise the river? No I don't think so.

I would bet this river and call a raise.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

Your hand is not that strong here, top pair so-so kicker. True, you don't know if someone will bet, but more often than not someone will, and its more important to try and protect your hand than to try and get more money in the pot. So i'm sticking with a check raise here.

[Jakesta]

[ QUOTE ]
Your hand is not that strong here, top pair so-so kicker. True, you don't know if someone will bet, but more often than not someone will, and its more important to try and protect your hand than to try and get more money in the pot. So i'm sticking with a check raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, our hand is not strong here- it is VERY strong. Get the money in while you are confident you have the best hand.

It would be awful if this got checked around, and an ace came on the turn, and you got beat by A2o. Be AGGRESSIVE! It pays off.

I will let others elaborate as to why a check-raise is a bad idea here, because I have to go.

[Sarge85]

You're probably better off just betting every street here.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Jacob_Gilliam]

Against a lot of opponents, this hand is not VERY STRONG.
You have to try and protect it. Betting out doesn't accomplish this.

[ClaytonN]

It's an unraised pot. Screw protecting your hand.

Betbetbetbetbetbetbetbetbet!

[Jakesta]

[ QUOTE ]
It's an unraised pot. Screw protecting your hand.

Betbetbetbetbetbetbetbetbet!

[/ QUOTE ]

[Jakesta]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a lot of opponents, this hand is not VERY STRONG.
You have to try and protect it. Betting out doesn't accomplish this.

[/ QUOTE ]

YES IT IS! Only one overcard can come to make someone a higher pair. This is a much stronger hand then a top pair of jacks or tens.

The sooner you get out of this weak-tight mentality that you are currently in, the better off you will be. You are leaving money ON the table.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
Your hand is not that strong here, top pair so-so kicker. True, you don't know if someone will bet, but more often than not someone will, and its more important to try and protect your hand than to try and get more money in the pot. So i'm sticking with a check raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure about the "more often than not" statement. You'd need some table reads i think.

With the draws that woud call anyway, i think i still prefer betting.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Jacob_Gilliam]

Even without a pre-flop raise, the pot is large, and we should be trying to improve our chances of winning it, not pumping more money. WE MUST PROTECT THIS HAND!!!!!! /images/graemlins/mad.gif
(By the way, this is not weak tight, because i'm not afraid of betting out, but this way is more +EV in the long run IMHO)

[ClaytonN]

You're trying to win MONEY

Not the POT

MONEY

Get that straight

Trying to protect a hand like this in an unraised pot is ludicrous. You cannot get past microlimits if you have this mentality with every top pair hand.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

Your trying to make the move that is the most +EV in the long run. Protecting is more EV than betting out, as I stated in my previous post. Sometimes betting out is correct, but not here. With so many callers, it is VERY likely that someone will bet. With a check raise, you thin the field and/or get extra money from someone who wants to call with middle pair. Just because on this occasion everyone checked does not make this a bad strategy because 80% of the time the strategy works.

[ClaytonN]

Do me a favor, please.

Stop.

Your advice is just painful, and you recommendation of HEPFAP for newbies puts you on my ignore list.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

Thank you

[Jakesta]

I must agree.

He is giving newbies bad advice and fostering a weeak-tight mentality on this subforum.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

One last post here, just for the record. The advice I give is what I would do. It may not be the same as what you would do or may not be correct all the time. I accept that others may have different opinions which are also valid, and the reader may choose to take whatever he or she wishes from each post. What I don't like is being slighted or talked down to, that i'm an idiot for having an opinion which is different than yours, which is the feeling that Clayton conveyed from his earlier post. Although I have disagreed with some other posters on other threads, I have never intentionally slighted any of them.

[Jakesta]

I am sorry that Clayton conveyed that impression.

I have never called you an idiot, or intentionally slighted you in any way.

I have said numerous times that you are giving bad advice, because I feel that it is important to be honest on these fourms. Poker is a very serious matter and some newbies cannot afford to lose lots of money while they are learning. They need to learn to extract very dollar of value out of their hands. This is what I am learning to do, and you should be too.

Tight-aggressive play is what wins the money. From reading your posts, you almost always seem to advocate either a form of fancy play syndrome(i.e. going for a checkraise to protect your hand when you should really just bet out), or just generaly weak-tightness, like folding a good hand preflop, or folding the river for one bet in a large pot.

If you don't like brutal honesty, then the 2+2 poker forums are not a good place to hang out. I have taken my share of lumps on here when I have given bad advice, and i don't take it personally. Neither should you.

Jakesta

[Jacob_Gilliam]

In what post did I ever suggest folding a good hand pre-flop, or folding to one bet on the river? In fact, in most of my posts, I tend to raise when others would call, and in no-limit, I tend to raise/go all-in when others would call.
I do check-raise, and in no limit bluff raise more than others, but considering I started with 10$ and now have over a thousand I am not particularly worried about my gameplay. Nor do I mind constructive criticism, which most of the criticism has not been.

[Jakesta]

In that pocket threes hand, you suggested folding preflop, because it was two bets back to the OP. That's weak.

[unimproved]

[ QUOTE ]
considering I started with 10$ and now have over a thousand

[/ QUOTE ]

This officially gets a lol. That is all.

[krishanleong]

I think of it this way: you are outkicked by 4 hands, 2 of which are likely preflop raises (AK and KQ). And you beat 7 hands. So I feel good and bet every street, for value and no other reason. I do not try to checkraise the flop because I don't know if someone in favorable position will bet it for me. If you run into resistance, it becomes read-dependent, but I likely call down anyway.

[Ringo_Mojo]

Bet the flop. This is a protect your hand situation.
Checking with the intentnion of raising a late position bet would be good except it looks like the table is pretty passive and giving a free card is a bad idea.

The turn bet is good, buy why didn't you follow up on the river?

[two cards]

I don't see any way to protect my hand on the flop. From the posts I guess I shouldn't worry about that. Why? Is top pair weak kicker good enough for value betting here? Just good agresive principles?

I really should have bet the river. No one played back at me in at the flop or turn. Blanks fell every round. My top pair weak kicker is probably good.

Results: <font color="white">Big blind shows me Ten Two. Turned two pair. Slow played it on the turn?</font>