Two Bellagio 30-60 misplayed turns

[skp]

I am pretty sure that I misplayed the turn on both of these Bellagio 30-60 hands that occurred on separate days on my Vegas trip this past weekend. For the purposes of the post, you should assume that I didn't have much of a read on the players in either case. I will hold off on saying what I actually did at the table. But you get bonus points if you can say what I did and what I am now thinking I should have done.

Hand 1

EP, MP and button limp. Sb calls. I raise with AsKs from the bb. 5 way action.

Flop: Qs7h4h

I bet. EP and MP call. Button raises. Sb folds and the rest of us call. 4 way action.

Turn: 7s

What's my line?

Hand no. 2

EP, MP and sb limp. I raise from the bb with AsTs.

Flop: 7h4d2c rainbow. I bet. Ep folds while other two players call.

Turn: Th

I bet. Mp calls. Sb checkraises.

What's my line now?

[Clarkmeister]

1. Hope to checkraise the button.

2. Depends on your read. If you are going to showdown, then you need to 3-bet.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Hope to checkraise the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

He might foil your plan by checking behind on his heart flush draw.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. Hope to checkraise the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

He might foil your plan by checking behind on his heart flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would that be terrible allowing hero to draw for free?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Hope to checkraise the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've thought about this some, and I just don't like the parlay of the Button pretty much always betting this if he has a Q (or god forbid a 7), but often checking behind when he has a flush draw. I actually think that, if your goal is to get the players stuck in the middle to make an incorrect fold, you are more likely on balance to accomplish that by betting than by attempting to get a check-raise in.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I've thought about this some, and I just don't like the parlay of the Button pretty much always betting this if he has a Q (or god forbid a 7), but often checking behind when he has a flush draw. I actually think that, if your goal is to get the players stuck in the middle to make an incorrect fold, you are more likely on balance to accomplish that by betting than by attempting to get a check-raise in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking the same thing, Nate. If it gets checked through, then any weak made hand gets a free shot at the river. I can see the argument that betting out on the turn might be a decent line here.

[Clarkmeister]

No one takes free cards anymore. If he happens to check behind, then god bless him.

[Subfallen]

1. The pivotal question is whether button has a better hand than us. If he does, he isn't folding. If he isn't folding, we need to improve to win. And none of our outs need to be cleared up, so let's just check-call. (If we somehow know we aren't drawing dead and all 15 outs are live, lead out with 32% equity.)

But if we have some read that the button will play a flush draw like this, check-motherfcuking-raise so the donkeys fold and the blank river goes check-check, OHIG.

2. I think we need to see the river (yes?) MP seems likely to have a draw (wouldn't pair+overcard raise the flop?!) so he's not folding if we 3-bet. That leaves call.

[Danielih]

I would like to 3bet the flop in the first example to try and get rid of some of the players. In any event checkraising and leading out the turn probably run close in value.

In the second example I think you should certainly 3bet.

[Lestat]

Not sure what mistake you think you made on the turn in hand 1, but had you 3-bet the flop, my guess is that you'd have been less likely to make it.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hand 1.

I stand with Clark here and I'd go for a check-raise on the turn. The big question then becomes whether or not to be the river which is where I find it difficult, but going with the flow of how I choose to play this hand I would bet river no matter what card fell. On the turn someone is very likely to bet this hand here with perhaps any pair, there is good fold and draw equity to make this move and chase weaker draws.

Hand 2.

It's a 3-bet or fold situation here for me. Assuming I don't know the players and assuming I think you like keeping that tricky but very good image you have, I would 3-bet.

Lawrence

[skp]

Hand 1

I went for the checkraise. Button did bet and I did raise. Others folded. Button then 3 bet. I went into the tank (i.e. did he flop a set of 4's?) but called. River was a blank and we both checked and MHIG. Presumably, he had a flush draw in hearts. It was probably Ace high as I am sure he would have bluffed with less than Ace high. FWIW, I think he played the turn expertly but he seriously blew it on the river. After I raked in the pot, he said "I knew that you had that but I also knew that you would call the river if I bet". While I would probably have called in that spot, there may well be times when I would have folded AK to a river bet.

I think the better play for me on the turn would have been to bet out. It would be a bit of a donk bet particularly in the button's eyes but it turned out that my checkraise was also seen as a donk checkraise by the button. In any event, betting out has its ads:

1. Button might just take the free card if he was on a flush draw.

2. One of the guys in between might have a 7 and I find out sooner and more economically by betting out.

3. One of the key advantages of checkraising the button is to get the limpers to fold a medium pocket pair or a hand that has 6 outs to my AK. But if I just bet out, they may fold anyway as they have to "worry" about my bet and more importantly, the button behind them. I just don't see the two guys in the middle calling (or raising) my bet with a small pocket or Ax or whatver it is they called the flop with.

Checkraising the button would appear to have more merit where the turn card is one that doesn't pair the board.

Hand 2

To recap: I was checkraised by the sb on a 2c4d7hTh board. I had AT and 3 bet. MP called 2 bets cold and then sb 4 bet. I folded. On the river, sb bet and the other guy didn't call so I don't know what sb had but a flopped set is obviously the most likely suspect.

Again, I think I erred here. In my albeit limited Bellagio experience, semibluff turn checkraises are rare (even in 30-60). You see them a lot more frequently online. On this board, his checkraise is way more likely to be a set than a flush draw or a hand like JT. I also doubt that it could be two small pairs given that he called my preflop raise and didn't raise the flop. This is a spot where I should just fold to his turn checkraise even though it seems weak to do so with TPTK . If the turn was an Ace and the hand played out the same way, I would call or 3 bet as he could very well be checkraising with a worse ace - here, it's extremely unlikely that he is checkraising with a worse ten.

[andyfox]

"After I raked in the pot, he said 'I knew that you had that but I also knew that you would call the river if I bet.'"

So what, then, was the purpose of his turn 3-bet? Either he's got to follow it up with a river bet or not 3-bet turn turn, no? Best he could have was A-J and since you raised the field pre-flop, you're more likely to have A-K than A-T or less.

[skp]

I suppose he meant that he knew what I had *after* I called the 3 bet. But who knows.....your point is a good one....I agree with you that he should have followed it up with a river bet.

[skp]

I don't really like the idea to 3 bet the flop. Sounds to me like that qualifies for an overplayed AK but I could be persuaded that I am wrong.

[nef]

I agree, I wouldn't 3-bet the flop and I was hoping for some follow up discussion about that.