Preflop Play of QJo

[Jim Brier]

I need some help resolving a conflict I am having with a friend of mine concerning the preflop play of queen-jack offsuit. Suppose you are in a full-tabled $20-$40 hold'em game. The game is loose with about 4-5 players taking a flop on the average. However, most of the pots are not getting raised.

You are in middle position with queen-jack offsuit. Three players limp in ahead of you. What do you do?

Would your answer be any different if you were in late position? How would it change if you were in a tight game with only 2-3 players taking a flop on average?

[M.B.E.]

I would call. In this type of game, when the flop comes queen- or jack-high your QJ will be good often enough to get positive expectation. That's my current belief, anyway; I'm open to being persuaded otherwise.

<font color="purple">Would your answer be any different if you were in late position? How would it change if you were in a tight game with only 2-3 players taking a flop on average? </font color>

In the loose game I'd also call in late position.

In a tight game if three players limp ahead of me then QJo should be folded. Now the chance is too high that someone has KQ and/or AJ (perhaps KJs).

[mikelow]

In the loose-passive situation you describe, I would just call and see who comes in behind me. QJoff is ok to play in this game, but I don't want to raise when I won't have position over everyone.

In a late position, I would raise as it will be easier to get a free flop, if need be. Also, in a late postion I will have more control over the hand.

In a tight game, I would fold QJoff preflop unless in a late position, where I could pick up the blinds.

[J.A.Sucker]

I'd call with QJo in loose, passive games like you describe at first. In LP, I'd consider raising, but would be more inclined to limp. In both of situations, I think you could raise if you think that most of the remaining players behind you will fold. This may be the case, if you are seen as a player who plays tight preflop.

In tight games, I would either fold (majority of the time), but in a very tight game, I would raise first in (sometimes) to try to steal the blinds. This can be done UTG in some games, and is worth a shot, IMO, when everybody is very tight. If you get called or 3 bet, then you have to play very defensively, but I think that in these games, KQo and AJo will usually be folded by players behind you, and the chances of being dominated are small, so it's not so bad.

These are just my ideas, but I'm Just Another Sucker.

[skp]

I agree

[David Sklansky]

You better play a lot better than your opponents to expect to make money with this hand outside of late positions. However it is OK to play it earlier, even if it figures to only break even, if you are trying to avoid a tight image.

[sleepyjoe]

I don't think this hand has a positive expectation. Why not wait until you find a hand that could at least be the nuts, like a suited ace or a small pocket pair? If I'm going speculating, I want to know that when I make a hand it's gonna be good. Unless you get AK10 or K109 you'll never be safe.

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Jim,
I agree with most of the other posters that it's ok to limp with QJo in a loose game, so long as the limpers are poor players, and you are at the later spectrum of mid position. As David points out, I only like this hand if I can out play my opponents. In a tougher game, this hand is a routine muck.

[Huh]

Haven't heard anyone say it yet, so I am ready to get slammed, but here goes. If I've seen the limpers in with trash or they are the type of people who like any two suited cards...

"Raise it up!"

I think the benefits are...
-You are wrecking the implied odds of smaller suited cards
-You very well might have the biggest cards.
-You may get a better hand to fold behind you.
-You may get a little post-flop leverage/respect

Cons
-If you are playing with limp/re-raisers you may get trapped.
-If people see you raise with these types of hands too often, they might start liberally three-betting you (which may not be a bad thing).
-You are building a pot and may be giving people correct odds to draw post-flop (Although I really don't like this argument).

What hands could the limpers have where a raise would really hurt you?
I count AK, AQ, AJ, KQ . And many players will raise AK AQ AJ, so their probability can be somewhat reduced.

What hands do you have to worry about behind you?
AA, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KK, QQ, JJ. And of those you might get KQ or AJ to fold.

In my defense, I just got done playing in a $7.50-$15.00 game where early players were frequently limping in with 89o, Q2s, and even 23s. The last thing I wanted to do was to let them see a flop cheaply when I had any two off-suit cards above a jack. I figured I would win more than my fair-share of pots, and it was easier to get these people to compound mistakes pre-flop.

Okay...Go ahead and shoot holes in my logic.

Huh?

[Boris]

I agree

[mikelow]

Even in loose, passive games you would toss Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ?

[Tommy Angelo]

I'd raise or fold, except from the cutoff, in which case I would definitely raise or fold. From the button, I'd raise or call, most likely call.

Tommy

[brad]

actually i play in 20/40 kinda like this a few times a wek and was just thinking about QJo lately.

i really came to the conclusion that its not worth playing, believe it or not, except as trash on the button or a blind steal.

having said that i think in middle positon you can play it just as a gamble hand but if you dont play well post flop for any reason (current linup, for example) then just forget about it.

[mikelow]

QJo--a tough hand to play. It's sooo tempting; you have two of the top four, especially when running bad. After reading this thread, I'm definitely tossing QJo, K10o, Q10o, A10o, A9o
and others, except in a late position.

Time to go back to tight play.

[Jim Brier]

I want to thank everyone for their replies. My friend argued that this is a raise or fold situation and that calling is the worst thing you could do. I don't agree at all.

With 3 limpers, I think you have a play here. In loose games, these guys limp in with any ace, any pair, most any two connecting cards, most any two suited cards, and so forth. It rates to be a volume pot with the blinds almost certain to come in. The only hands that dominate yours are AJ, KJ, and KQ. Other dominating hands would have probably raised. If you catch top pair and get heat, you can consider folding rather than paying out all the way to the river but it would depend upon the situation. I think for one small bet you have a play here.

[skp]

Tommy,

Why not just call?

Here are some reasons I can quickly think of in favour of calling.

One of the advantages of raising preflop in late position is to allow you an opportunity to buy you a free card when in late position. But here, I am not so sure that it's worth it because the hand is difficult to play when you hit a Queen on the turn if people autocheck the flop "to the raiser".

With QJs, a raise preflop makes sense both from a value perspective and from a "I could use a free card perspective" i.e. you flop one of your suit with no other help and everyone checks.

Raising with QJ also encourages opponents to stick around a little longer in the hand. This then makes your hand more vulnerable even when you hit top pair (and it happens to put you in the lead).

Finally, when you raise with QJ and hit top pair, it's harder to correctly deduce that a checkcaller/checkraiser is on KQ, AJ than it would be if you did not raise i.e. when you raise preflop and get checkraised on the flop, it's less clear whether the raiser is just testing to see if you have AK etc. If you don't raise preflop and face action on a Jack high flop, you can be more sure that the aggressor has KJ or AJ (or perhaps QJ like you).

It sounds to me that on balance, calling may be better than raising. And for reasons given by Jim, MBE and others, I think calling is also better than folding.

All of the above assumes a multiway pot of course. I would agree with the raise or fold strategy if you were in Late position and had just one MP limper or something particularly if you have good control over him.


Comments?

[KOJAK]

Well James, I agree that if you're playing in a game where people are limping in with trash (i.e. the pink game) then the QJ raise is a good one. But I'm not raising OR limping QJo in EP in the typical tight online game. I'd limp if it was suited.

[mikelow]

A lot of the time I will raise in late position against loose limpers, in order to isolate. But only against one or two players. And sometimes on the button, even with several in, to get the free flop. I probably have overplayed the hand over the years. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

[Tommy Angelo]

"Tommy, Why not just call?"

There is a CD coming out in about a month that has a song on it called "The Raiser's Edge." The first lines are, "I don't like to limp / because I don't like the way it sounds / It makes me feel like a wimp / anytime I don't pound it."

That's why I would raise or fold.

"Here are some reasons I can quickly think of in favour of calling."

You make fine points and I can't rebut any of them.

Tommy

[Huh]

Hmmm, I guess its time to get a new alias....I liked this one too. Maybe I'll have to post decoy messages to throw off the people I regularly play with.

The game was described as

"The game is loose with about 4-5 players taking a flop on the average. However, most of the pots are not getting raised."

In this type of game I often see people limping in with A&lt;8s, Even K-trash suited...Not too mention the "any two card" and "any two suited card" groups. I agree that folding might be the best play, if even one of the limpers was tight, but I think I would pop it....And be very concerned about the players who limped/raised behind me.

I still think you are wrecking the implied odds of the early limpers and have a good shot at getting players behind you to fold hands that may dominate you.

I admit, I love to raise, but I think it may be warranted here. In extra-passive pre-flop games, I've seen a mp raise not only buy the button, but get you to the turn for free(if that is what you want to do)...


Just some ideas,
-Huh

[Yerma]

"You are in middle position with queen-jack offsuit. Three players limp in ahead of you. What do you do?"

I fold easy.

"Would your answer be any different if you were in late position? How would it change if you were in a tight game with only 2-3 players taking a flop on average? "

The only time QJo is playable is when you are reraising a steal raise or maniacal raise, steal raising yourself, or if you are on the button against two limpers (raise). The 'nature' of the game is irrelevant.

[Yerma]

These ideas are so tight-weak that you anger me.

Now, it's not very constructive of me to call you names, so I would like to make an actual point: If someone is limping in with any ace, any two suited, or any pair and you respond by limping in as well with QJo then that man is outplaying you preflop.

Here's how you actually cross someone who likes the bad hands (eg. A7o in early for a limp): you raise him. You get him heads-up with your own bad hand or you just hold a good hand and raise everybody.

There is a lot of meaning that I have left out in this post. But once you figure out what I'm talking about, you will finally be playing well.

[Jim Brier]

But Yerma, the problem is that you cannot isolate one player in this situation because you have three players already committed. I would agree that if only one loose limper came in, this would be more like a raise or fold situation. From your answer below, I gather you would fold.

[Yerma]

"But Yerma, the problem is that you cannot isolate one player in this situation because you have three players already committed."

If you consider the chances that: a) someone will have a raising hand behind you; b) that someone has limped in before you with a better hand; c) that you must flop *something good* to win this hand; d) the size of the pot

and that the main factor here is (b) then there will probably be some mathematical treatment to this problem that says that there are *no* limping hands and only a very few raising hands. I won't tell you that's true for sure because it's a hard problem!

Look at it this way. Suppose you are the second limper. You think the first limper has come in with AJo or 88 or something. Can the second limper come in with ATo? And if the third limper knows this about the first and second limper, can the third limper come in with KJo? There's no way he's supposed to do that. They're better off coming in with garbage than hands that duplicate the outs of the earlier limpers. It gives them a better chance at the pot. And then you come in with your QJo and the other limpers, with their garbage, have just outplayed you. That's not to say they should have come in with their own subpar hands but that none of you should have limped in the first place.

Maybe you remember the old draw poker days? If someone opened and then two people call, do you come in with two tiny pair? You're asking to get killed if you play that way. The only reason it's not so apparent in hold'em is that there are two extra betting rounds you can use to catch up. But the effect is still there.

[M.B.E.]

<font color="purple">There is a lot of meaning that I have left out in this post. But once you figure out what I'm talking about, you will finally be playing well.</font color>

What? I don't think Jim Brier needs you to tell him whether he's playing well. Many of us strive to play as well as Jim.