One Year of Poker

[davidross]

I am just completing my first year of Poker. At 42 years of age I discovered the game via the internet (I had played some informal home games in my 20's but it couldn't be called poker). I have played almost exclusively online because of the lack of free time (full time job and 4 kids to be driven to activities on the weekend), and no local cardrooms. In the last 2 months I have had some time off between contracts, and a cardroom opened 1/2 an hour from me so I have begun to discover the very different live game too. But I start work again in January so I think online is my future for now. I play almost every night for a couple of hours after my wife and kids are in bed. I estimate I have played about 80,000 hands online so I think I have better than an equivalent year of live play.

SO if you are still with me I will try to get to the point of this post. I just want to share my findings with other new and experienced players. Ask the better players for advice on how to continue to improve and maybe help others trying to do the same thing.

First let me say I am pretty much a break-even player. I have put in $900 total to my Paradise account. I have taken out $500 and I have $1,600 in my account right now. SO I'm up $1,200 over an estimated 700 hours playing 2 tables. If I'd gone to Macdonalds to flip burgers I'd be way ahead. BUT!!... I think I'm still way ahead of 75% of the other players. AND...I keep my results by the stakes I'm playing. I am up $4,000 at 2/4, Down 1,800 at 3/6 and down 1,000 at 5/10.

I started like any other newbie trying to play every hand and win every pot. I bought Lou Krieger's book and began to get an idea of starting hands and positional play. I do recommend the book to any new players. Then I discovered the 2+2 forum and a whole new world opened up to me. I bought HPFAP, but to be honest, very little of it sunk in at first. I am reading it again now for about the 5th time (Some sections have been read 30 times at least) and only now is some of it making any sense at all. I loved to read the mid-high stakes posts here at 2+2, but again, I didn't understand what they were talking about, and most of it isn't relevant to the games I play. But the low stakes posts were an unbelievable aid to me. The advice and tips I got here was invaluable. You do of course have to weed out the good advice from the bad, but you can figure out pretty quickly who's opinions to respect and who you can ignore. Also it was important to find people who play the game the way you want to play it. Now after a year of improving I find myself reading the mid-high sections much more than the low.

So what have I discovered?

1) No matter how well I play, most of my winnings comes from bad play by others. This is more common at 2/4 and that's where most(all) of my winning has taken place.

2) You need to make the most from your winning hands (I think I do a good job of this) and lose the least from your losing hands (I do a very poor job of this). In the next year I want ot work on making that extra value bet or check-raise on the river, and getting off losing hands sooner. Specifically I have a problem when I have raised pre-flop. I can't seem to switch gears when someone plays back at me and I continue to chase my unmproved AK or AQ, or my big pocket pair when facing an obvious AA. THis will be my biggest challenge if I want to go to the next level.

3) There is no perfect play in poker. I used to play some competitive chess and in chess there was always the right move for a situation that was fixed on the board. In poker, everything is dependant on information you don't have so you need to estimate. Against one opponent you make one play and against others you make a totally different play in the same situation. This is difficult for me, but I am improving at it.

4) I need to stop trying to win every session. Especially live when I get to go so rarely, it seems I start to play hands that are too weak in the last hour before my departure time. I have turned some modest losses into big losses that way. Online is a little easier for me because I will play again tomorrow, but I need to improve my discipline live.

5) the differences between online and live are considerable. The 2/4 online game seems to me to be as difficult as the 10/20 game live I play. But they are very different. Online you can often win a pot with a flop bet. Live this just never happens. Almost everyone see's the turn. If I get a free play in the Blind with T9 and the flop comes 9 high, I cannot bet out and expect to win that pot. Online quite often you can.

there is so much more information available live. Just looking to my left from early position I can usually count how many people are going to fold pre-flop. What an advantage. However, I am much less likely to bluff live. I find it harder to do staring at people who are right there.

If you have gotten this far, thanks for letting me ramble. It helps me to organise my thoughts when I write them like this. I thank all of the 2+2'ers that have exchanged information with me this past year and all my paradise buddies that I have learned to stay out of pots with. I hope I can update you this time next year and tell you I am now beating the 3/6 and 5/10 games too.

[spitball]

a couple observations:

I strongly recommend only playing one table at a time when you move up - your post seems to indicate that you play two at a time. fine for limits you feel confident playing, not so if you are unsure.

re #2 above:
when you play chess, you are always trying to get into your opponent's head. as you move up limits in poker, this skill is paramount. often in low-limits, the MOST involved any of your opponents are, is thinking what the other players are betting - putting others on hands. as you move up, you'll find that the tough players are always asking themselves, what do my opponents think I have and using that information to manipulate the betting. you must figure out - by matching their betting patterns with the hands they show-down - to what level each of your opponents are thinking to.

so, somtimes your correct play is easy to figure, (you raise your big pair, get called by a straight forward player, bet the turn, and get raised by that straight-forward thinker, you are likely beat), and sometimes the situation is quite murky. It is critical at the table, in my mind, to develop a strong sense of who's turn bets are a reliable indication of hand strength, and who's aren't.

you'll often find that a correct fold with a medium strength hand versus one opponent, should be a raise with the same hand vs. at totally different type of opponent.

spitball

[Ryan_21]

It seems like you have learned a lot in your first year of poker, this also completes my first year of poker play although I studied for 4 years and played home games while I was underage. But it seems you did not learn the most important rule of poker. GAME SELECTION.

The great thing about internet poker is that there should be no excuse to not be playing in the best game possible. You can download all the best sites and have a quick look around. From you post I gather that you only play on Paradise. Myself like you started on Paradise, but I soon learned how tough these games can be. Even the 1-2 tables can be tough on there. After I learned of other sites, I havent played on Paradise for over 6 months.

If you want weaker low limit games I would recomend Partypoker, Pokeroom, Ultimatebet (<--never played there but heard good things about Ultimatebet) and ACR has soft games and great promotions but not a lot of action above 1-2.

Hope this might help a little.

Ryan_21

[balt999]

Poker's learning process is a marathon....no matter how long you've played, there is always something you learn every time you sit at a table. You've picked up on the game very well (Of course, I learned from our battles on Paradise)...just remember, never forget the poker fundamentals, and to always keep your ears open to keep learning and working on your game. As always play well (Unless we're heads up) /forums/images/icons/wink.gif and see you at the tables...

[davidross]

Spitball,

Thanks for the reply. Point 1, playing only one table. This has been mentioned to me before and I will try it next time I try to make the jump in limits. I think it is good advice.

Point 2. What are they thinking. This has to be the next phase of my development. No doubt. I need to get away from thinking of the strength of my hand in general and start recognizing it's relative value. I think I have started to do that, but I have a long way to go. Strangely enough this seems to be easier for me live. Maybe because of the pace of the game.

Thanks for the advice.

[davidross]

Hey Ryan,

Thanks for the reply. I should have pointed out in the post that my primary motivation for playing is not the money. I do hope to play at limits someday where the money matters, but for now it's not worth it to me to set up accounts at multiple sites. I usually have several table choices at Paradise so I do try to find the best game there, but I don't want to be playing at multiple sites.

[KOJAK]

I tried UltimateBet a few weeks ago and I didn't like it at all. The games were very tight, even tighter than Paradise. And the site and software are poor. Also, they use a round table instead of an oval, which didn't look nice. It's also somewhat tough at first to figure out which players have folded and which are still in the hand because of where players' cards go when they much them. You'll see what I mean if you try the site, but I don't recommend it.

[Byrn]

>>I tried UltimateBet a few weeks ago and I didn't like it at all. The games were very tight, even tighter than Paradise. And the site and software are poor. Also, they use a round table instead of an oval, which didn't look nice. It's also somewhat tough at first to figure out which players have folded and which are still in the hand because of where players' cards go when they much them. You'll see what I mean if you try the site, but I don't recommend it. <<

I had the same take as you on the games there, I withdrew my money. I thought the tables in the "minimized" mode (with the flat bar) were the best feature. I forget the technical name of the feature, it is a table display option. I found it much easier to play multiple tables - especially on 2 sites at once. Even if you only have a browser open in another window to read 2+2, the minimized table size is very conveinent.

[eMarkM]

I'm more or less along the same progression as David, about a year and a half from being a clueless newbie to at least a half way decent player. I've ascended to higher limits than David, but probably I've been more aggressive as my bankroll has swelled. I'm up around 4K altogether, but well off my highs and now back playing in 3/6 territory. Yeah, I could make more flippin burgers at McDonalds given the hours I've put in, but it's better than having to constantly rebuy like I'm sure the majority of players do. And I'm having a blast.

I estimate I have played about 80,000 hands online

Estimate? Do you have PokerStat? That would tell exactly how much you've played with info on every one of your opponents. As much as you play at PP you'd really benefit from the program if you don't have it.

I bought Lou Krieger's book...I bought HPFAP

Check out Brier/Ciafonne's Middle Limit book. I like it a lot. Some complain that they advocate too weak-tight play, but if you're chasing overcards against a field, it will help you. Maybe not completely applicable to PP 2/4, but will be as you move up.

No matter how well I play, most of my winnings comes from bad play by others. This is more common at 2/4 and that's where most(all) of my winning has taken place.

Obvioulsy, as you move up those players are a lot less common, but even at 20/40 they can be found. Game selection is still paramount.

I can't seem to switch gears when someone plays back at me and I continue to chase my unmproved AK or AQ

This, to me, is one of the biggest differences between the good players at the LL and the good players at the higher limits. All the good players are tight-aggressive, yadda yadda. But at the higher limits I've seen the best players frequently raise preflop and then check and fold on the flop. They don't try and muscle everyone out when they miss against a field (HU or 3 way, of course it's different). On the LL the preflop raiser will often keep firing away against a field regardless of how scary the flop is. The best ones know when to lay down, you rarely see these guys chase.

The 2/4 online game seems to me to be as difficult as the 10/20 game live I play. But they are very different.

People try all kinds of crazy crap online for just the reason you stated. They don't have to look them in the face when their bluff raise on the river fails.

I hope to see you move up to 3/6 and 5/10 soon. Not just because of the greater stakes, but because, if I'm not mistaken, the rake on 2/4 is the worst of all the limits at PP in terms of how much it takes relative to the stakes ($3 max is 3/4 BB, vs 5/10 being 3/10 BB).

[Hotchile]

Most players know that they have to move beyond playing just the strength of their hand to succeed at poker. One way to do so is to start thinking about how to play against each player. I have found this method to be somewhat ineffective because it is based on how you perceive that player. A player can then adjust his play and leave you in total bewilderment. What he cannot adjust so easily is his perception of you. So basing your play on how you think your opponent sees you, will be a more effective way to determine how you play him. I will use 3 players to illustrate my point. Adam, Bob, and Carl

1) Adam. This guys seems to always call you to the river no matter what kind of hand he has. He will drive you nuts on days when you are missing draws or raising hands. Why does he do it? He hates to be bluffed and thinks that you bluff alot. Therefore, hitting any piece of the board means he should call you all the way. Now, how would you play against a player who sees you this way??

Bob: Will call your raises but only 3 bet with a monster. He then will check and call unless he hits big. Why? He respects the types of hands that you raise with and doesn't want to get caught in a raising war unless he's certain he has you beat. How would you play a guy who sees you this way

Carl: Raises you every chance he gets. Often shortens fields to get heads up with you. Why? He sees you as weak tight and thinks that he can outplay you in almost all situations. What can you do to beat this guy?


Poker players can see you in many different ways and how they perceive you will dictate how they will play against you. If you take note of how they are playing you, you will soon know their perception and also how to play against them.

Hope this is helpful, good luck.

Larry

[soda]

Hi David,

Nice post.

First, I'd recommend that you get PokerStat. The stats that I get from PokerStat on myself and other players are very valuable. In fact, I'd be happy to share your stats with you. I don't have them now, I'm in Buffalo until Jan. 6th, but on the 7th - I'll gladly email you what I have if you like. We've played lots of hands together. (:

Some players are so tight that you can muck almost anything against their raises. Also, it's easy to identify these players with PokerStat and play nearly perfect poker against them. For example, if they limp in EP, then they have A, B or C. Also, fish are easy to identify.

If you haven't heard it already - here's my bio. I've been playing for a year and a half now. Quit my job and went full time after 2 months. Now, I'm playing exclusively online. Oddly enough, Krieger's was the first book I bought too. I'd recommend the Ciaffone and Brier book. It will help you lose less on poor hands. It helped me to think about lots of situations in ways I hadn't before. Although I disagree with some of the stuff in this book, that's true with every text I've read. HPFAP is key, as you know. Also, Mason's essays are great.

Gotta run - gl.

soda

[cero_z]

David,
Congratulations! It sounds like you're progressing nicely. A couple comments: Your live 10-20 game sounds terrific, but you'll have to master loose game strategy to make the most of it. HPFAP 21st Century has all you need (read it and Theory of Poker at least 30 times).
It's great that you're already pausing, looking left pre-flop. It took me more than a year to learn that. If you're going to play live, I suggest you get Caro's tells video, as it is of great help in low-limit games. Keep working hard.